The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

[Auze]

Ok, good to know

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Is there only one deity, God? Is His Son, Jesus Christ, of the same nature and essence?

What do you mean by "nature and essence"?

[Savopia]

Alright lads, in the ideal Christian society, what is the best method to combat heresy?

Since you emphasize "ideal", an ideal Christian society would imply there are no heretics known.

[Salus Maior]

https://liturgyguy.com/2017/03/19/the-p ... ng-sermon/ I think this article makes a profound point for traditionalism in the Catholic Church. And I think it ultimately boils down to this: things like wearing the cassock firmly establishes the Catholic identity, it's not a capitulation to secularism or modernism, but, that does not make it unapproachable or "out of reach" like some advocates of modernist reforms claim. Because people who really want to seek God and the Church want to find something different, something uniquely Catholic and evident of the ancient truths the Church holds.

I think the people who really want to seek God and seek the Church don't go to church to find more of the same world we're always stuck in, they want to find something that's not part of the world (John 15:19) and that's what's going to strengthen the Catholic Church, by sticking to its roots. Not capitulation to modernism, which has already done plenty of damage in the unity of the church, and caused many to leave.

[Vulkata II]

I'm not very much well educated in the stories of the saints but did St. Nicholas really punch a person for heresy?

I mean I know he did a lot of good things in the name of God but I did find some memes saying that he once helped sisters and brothers from tearing each other apart only to be remembered that he punched someone for heresy.

[Salus Maior]

I'm not very much well educated in the stories of the saints but did St. Nicholas really punch a person for heresy?

I mean I know he did a lot of good things in the name of God but I did find some memes saying that he once helped sisters and brothers from tearing each other apart only to be remembered that he punched someone for heresy.

He lost his temper when Arius (as in, the guy who denied Jesus's divinity and lead a movement on that idea) was speaking during a council and slapped him. This, however, he quickly regretted and his position of Bishop was taken away from him. He did penance and repented and he was restored to the office.

While it is a funny thing to remember, it also was something that was wrong to do and St. Nicholas knew that as well and repented of it.

[Vulkata II]

I'm not very much well educated in the stories of the saints but did St. Nicholas really punch a person for heresy?

I mean I know he did a lot of good things in the name of God but I did find some memes saying that he once helped sisters and brothers from tearing each other apart only to be remembered that he punched someone for heresy.

He lost his temper when Arius (as in, the guy who denied Jesus's divinity and lead a movement on that idea) was speaking during a council and slapped him. This, however, he quickly regretted and his position of Bishop was taken away from him. He did penance and repented and he was restored to the office.

While it is a funny thing to remember, it also was something that was wrong to do and St. Nicholas knew that as well and repented of it.

Can't blame him.

We all lose our tempers every now and then. Thanks for telling me this.

[The Alma Mater]

I'm not very much well educated in the stories of the saints but did St. Nicholas really punch a person for heresy?

I mean I know he did a lot of good things in the name of God but I did find some memes saying that he once helped sisters and brothers from tearing each other apart only to be remembered that he punched someone for heresy.

He lost his temper when Arius (as in, the guy who denied Jesus's divinity and lead a movement on that idea) was speaking during a council and slapped him. This, however, he quickly regretted and his position of Bishop was taken away from him. He did penance and repented and he was restored to the office.

While it is a funny thing to remember, it also was something that was wrong to do and St. Nicholas knew that as well and repented of it.

I do wonder what Saint Nicholas himself would think of his modern day portrayals. A bishop accompanied by blackface servants, a bishop accompanied by sexdemons, a jolly old fat man in a flying sleigh... which one would upset him most ?

[Salus Maior]

He lost his temper when Arius (as in, the guy who denied Jesus's divinity and lead a movement on that idea) was speaking during a council and slapped him. This, however, he quickly regretted and his position of Bishop was taken away from him. He did penance and repented and he was restored to the office.

While it is a funny thing to remember, it also was something that was wrong to do and St. Nicholas knew that as well and repented of it.

I do wonder what Saint Nicholas himself would think of his modern day portrayals. A bishop accompanied by blackface servants, a bishop accompanied by sexdemons, a jolly old fat man in a flying sleigh... which one would upset him most ?

Yeah, real St. Nicholas = Best Saint Nicholas.

[The Alma Mater]

I do wonder what Saint Nicholas himself would think of his modern day portrayals. A bishop accompanied by blackface servants, a bishop accompanied by sexdemons, a jolly old fat man in a flying sleigh... which one would upset him most ?

Yeah, real St. Nicholas = Best Saint Nicholas.

Indeed. His grave is also a great place to take the kids

[Salus Maior]

Yeah, real St. Nicholas = Best Saint Nicholas.

Indeed. His grave is also a great place to take the kids

Historical sites are always a good place for the kiddos.

[Auze]

Yeah, real St. Nicholas = Best Saint Nicholas.

Indeed. His grave is also a great place to take the kids

"See, Santa is real, he's just dead"

[Hakons]

Indeed. His grave is also a great place to take the kids

"See, Santa is real, he's just dead"

Well, he's alive in Heaven.

[Corpus Magnus]

These debates over substance and essence are largely incomprehensible even to their partisans: this is a proudly proclaimed heritage of decadent philosopher's sophistry—the west remained orthodox through all of this without need to count angels. The Latin pedigree is simply better than the nonsense of Greek.

Latin texts, even the vulgate Bible, are largely translated from Greek. Terms like "essence" are used in the Nicene Creed. Speaking of which....

Thanks for clearing that up. That sounds... actually, exactly like what we believe.

Tbh, the point is rather moot. We are using different words to describe the same (or very similar) things.

That's great. I'm sure you affirm the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the essence of the Father.

God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father, by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.

Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, in the uncreated and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, prophets, and Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.

We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism in repentance, for the remission, and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, and the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life.

Officially, no. It's complicated.

It depends on what you mean by "of the essense of the Father". If by this you mean that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are the same being - e.g. they have the same soul - then no. We do believe that He is of the same nature as the Father, but we don't believe in the Trinity, meaning we don't believe in that triangle diagram everyone posts when you ask about the Trinity.

[Corpus Magnus]

Ok, good to know

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Is there only one deity, God? Is His Son, Jesus Christ, of the same nature and essence?

No, there is not only one deity. In nature, yes, they are the same; essence... well, it depends on what you mean by essence.

[Corpus Magnus]

Thanks for clearing that up. That sounds... actually, exactly like what we believe.

Tbh, the point is rather moot. We are using different words to describe the same (or very similar) things.

Except it's not. We believe that God is one, you don't. That is an irreconcilable difference.

But they act as one. Technically there is a difference, but practically there is not.

[Hakons]

Is there only one deity, God? Is His Son, Jesus Christ, of the same nature and essence?

No, there is not only one deity. In nature, yes, they are the same; essence... well, it depends on what you mean by essence.

Ok, than it is obvious that there is a very large difference between Christianity and Mormonism. Christians believe in one God Who is the creator of all things, the means of salvation, and the source of all understanding and belief. Christianity is monotheistic. Mormonism is not. I'm not sure how much more debate we can have on this.

[Tarsonis]

Except it's not. We believe that God is one, you don't. That is an irreconcilable difference.

But they act as one. Technically there is a difference, but practically there is not.

No, no such technicality exists. They are one. They are of the same essence and substance. The Word was God and was with God. That's Scripture.


You're inventing a technicality that doesn't not exist.

[Corpus Magnus]

Yes, we do!

well, if you can clear up some things with me I will list verses that I think are contradictions but if you can explain them to me.

Moroni 8:8 ...little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin...
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

This should answer your question.

2 Nephi 25:23 ... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

What is the contradiction here?

If you have more questions, https://www.fairmormon.org should answer most of them.

[Tarsonis]

well, if you can clear up some things with me I will list verses that I think are contradictions but if you can explain them to me.

Moroni 8:8 ...little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin...
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

This should answer your question.

2 Nephi 25:23 ... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

What is the contradiction here?

If you have more questions, https://www.fairmormon.org should answer most of them.

To be fair this last one is more a Protestant issue, than a Christian v. Mormonism . Apostolic Christianity does not neglect the importance of works .

[Luminesa]

Except it's not. We believe that God is one, you don't. That is an irreconcilable difference.

But they act as one. Technically there is a difference, but practically there is not.

...If they share a will, and a substance...then they’re one. Can you show specifically where in the Bible it says they’re not one substance? (If you’ve already done so and I missed it, I apologize. I been busy RPing all morning!)

[Eli Islands]

2 Nephi 25:23 ... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

What is the contradiction here?

If you have more questions, https://www.fairmormon.org should answer most of them.

to my understanding it seems that mormons believe that you must do things to get saved (I may be wrong)

the contradiction (there may not be one but this is how I see it) is that to my knowledge the Bible teaches us that salvation is wholly of grace while works are still important thats not what brings salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 11:6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
Titus 3:5-6 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

[Hakons]

This should answer your question.


What is the contradiction here?

If you have more questions, https://www.fairmormon.org should answer most of them.

To be fair this last one is more a Protestant issue, than a Christian v. Mormonism . Apostolic Christianity does not neglect the importance of works .

I thought Catholicism affirmed Sola Gratia? We are not saved by our number of works, but by the grace of Christ's sacrifice. Salvation is a gift and not a reward.

This is different from the debate over Sola Fide, or faith vs. faith plus works.

[Corpus Magnus]

2 Nephi 25:23 ... for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

What is the contradiction here?

If you have more questions, https://www.fairmormon.org should answer most of them.

to my understanding it seems that mormons believe that you must do things to get saved (I may be wrong)

the contradiction (there may not be one but this is how I see it) is that to my knowledge the Bible teaches us that salvation is wholly of grace while works are still important thats not what brings salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 11:6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
Titus 3:5-6 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Oh, I see. Your scriptural references are rather irrelevant but I see where you're coming from.

Yes, we believe that only God's grace can bring us to salvation, since we are woefully imperfect and it is impossible to get there on our own. Receiving God's grace means accepting His Atonement, and to do this we must have faith in Him. Faith is shown, in part, by doing good works - you cannot have faith and not do good works. Christ taught we must serve others, so we serve others. The point of mortal life is to prove that you are a good person, worthy of entering heaven. One does this by having faith and serving others. However, it is impossible to reach the level of goodness that is required to reach heaven, and so God's grace is the only thing that can save your soul. We do not undervalue good works, but we do stress that God's grace is what brings salvation.

[Eli Islands]

to my understanding it seems that mormons believe that you must do things to get saved (I may be wrong)

the contradiction (there may not be one but this is how I see it) is that to my knowledge the Bible teaches us that salvation is wholly of grace while works are still important thats not what brings salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 11:6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.
Titus 3:5-6 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Oh, I see. Your scriptural references are rather irrelevant but I see where you're coming from.

I am showing you where i'm getting this idea from so you can correct me if i'm interpreting them wrong.

[Tarsonis]

To be fair this last one is more a Protestant issue, than a Christian v. Mormonism . Apostolic Christianity does not neglect the importance of works .

I thought Catholicism affirmed Sola Gratia? We are not saved by our number of works, but by the grace of Christ's sacrifice. Salvation is a gift and not a reward.

This is different from the debate over Sola Fide, or faith vs. faith plus works.

Catholics affirm Sola Gratia in that yes salvation is a gift and that no amount of works can ever merit salvation. But that's not to say works have no place within the economy of salvation:

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters,[a] if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.