The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

[Hakons]

Lesbian Methodist bishop says very strange things.

I'm at a loss as to why she ever became a bishop. It was a western district, so maybe the region wanted to do the useless appeal to liberalism that has totally worked over the last century. She holds many heretical positions that are out of line with the United Methodist Church, so I don't know why she hasn't been removed.

Edit: Because of the questions raised by her ascension to bishop, Church authorities met and clarified that it is against Church teachings to elect homosexual bishops. Still, this was in April and she hasn't been removed, presumably because she has supporters in the western regions.

[Vulkata II]

Anyone want a reunification of the Christian church to happen?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Anyone want a reunification of the Christian church to happen?

As long as it's on the terms of the Eastern Orthodox Church, of course.

[Hakons]

Anyone want a reunification of the Christian church to happen?

As long as it's on the terms of the Eastern Orthodox Church, of course.

And that's the way it works. Everyone wants a unified Church, but no one wants to compromise their theology.

[Vulkata II]

As long as it's on the terms of the Eastern Orthodox Church, of course.

And that's the way it works. Everyone wants a unified Church, but no one wants to compromise their theology.

Yes. I think that's the only reason we're not unified yet though I did find this article, thought it made a lot of sense.

https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2010/september-october/the-daughter-of-babylon

[Hakons]

And that's the way it works. Everyone wants a unified Church, but no one wants to compromise their theology.

Yes. I think that's the only reason we're not unified yet though I did find this article, thought it made a lot of sense.

https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2010/september-october/the-daughter-of-babylon

Oh dear. Don't focus on interpreting cryptic language in Revelations and grafting it onto modern events. Focus on doing good works in the community, and not on calling the largest Christian denomination the whore of Babylon.

[Vulkata II]

Yes. I think that's the only reason we're not unified yet though I did find this article, thought it made a lot of sense.

https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2010/september-october/the-daughter-of-babylon

Oh dear. Don't focus on interpreting cryptic language in Revelations and grafting it onto modern events. Focus on doing good works in the community, and not on calling the largest Christian denomination the whore of Babylon.

I guess that makes sense.

Alrighty then.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

And that's the way it works. Everyone wants a unified Church, but no one wants to compromise their theology.

Yes. I think that's the only reason we're not unified yet though I did find this article, thought it made a lot of sense.

https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2010/september-october/the-daughter-of-babylon

My reaction to reading that article:

[The Archregimancy]

Didn't Arch say a long time ago that Christians don't have it too bad in the Gulf states? Well, because most of them are foreigners.

Eh, it's complicated. As I understand it, Qatar is one of the better ones, relatively speaking. The Emirates are mixed (it depends on the Emirate, and whether you are a rich tourist or a guest worker - citizens can't be Christians, of course). I have no idea about Bahrain. And Saudi Arabia... is hell.

Christians are not oppressed in the Emirates, nor does it particularly matter which Emirate you're in, though it's true that some Emirates (notably Sharjah, where the Russian Orthodox Church has crosses on its domes that are lit up for Easter) are slightly more relaxed about visible symbols of Christianity than others.

There are some manual labourer Christians from South Asia, but even the latter are catered to via various Indian Christian denominations. Every single Emirate - even little Umm al Quwain - has at least one church, often several. Abu Dhabi actively promotes the ruins of a Nestorian Monastery on Sir Bani Yas island as a tourist destination, and will be (I might have some inside knowledge on this one) actively incorporating the latter into displays in a prominent new museum in the original Abu Dhabi Fort. A published history of Christianity in the UAE written by an Anglican priest based in the country is openly on sale in the country's bookshops. Outside of Christianity, Dubai even has a Hindu temple directly behind the Emir's central offices.

Having worked in both Qatar and the UAE (and lived in the latter), I can state with some confidence that the Emirates are more relaxed overall about non-Muslim religions than Qatar, and about the sale of both alcohol and pork. Well, except Judaism; and even then they'll make an exception for plastering at least one Orthodox Jew all over real estate billboards - namely Ivanka Trump.

Also, there's one serious factual error in an earlier post of Const's. The UAE emirates are not Wahhabist states in any way, shape, or form; the ruling families of both Abu Dhabi and Dubai adhere to the mainstream Maliki school of Sunni Islam, which is entirely distinct from Saudi interpretations of Islam. It's Saudi Arabia and Qatar that are the two Wahhabist monarchies in the Gulf, though the Qataris aren't nearly as militant in their Wahhabism than the Saudis.

I'm not going to pretend it's all sweetness and light; anyone caught trying to convert Muslims to Christianity is likely to find themselves politely escorted to the nearest airport in the UAE; so proselytising is out. But there are no real restrictions on worship within churches, and there are far of the latter in the UAE than in Qatar.

With the exception of Bahrain and Kuwait, all Christians in the Gulf are 'foreigners'. Bahrain and Kuwait both have native Christian Arab families that are full citizens of their respective countries. Bahrain even has a tiny native Jewish community. The current Bahraini ambassador to the UK is a native Christian; a recent Bahraini ambassador to the US was a native Jewish citizen. Both are/were also women.

[Salus Maior]

I would argue that true faith will always lead to good works while good works don't lead to true faith. In other words, it matters which end of the faith-works spectrum you start from. At the same time, claiming faith without having any works is a sign of spiritual immaturity at best (I would say that new believers can claim this and be true Christians, but as they grow in the faith the true believers will eventually show their faith through their works) and lukewarmness at worst (Rev. 3:15-16).

Of course, there's a balance to be struck between works and faith (one can be to consumed with works and lose sight of their faith, see the Pharisees) but where exactly that balancing point is has been a major source of theological debate for 2000 years.

Well, as an adult or otherwise conscientious individual it would be true that faith is the first step to salvation, but it in and of itself doesn't give one salvation. For one, you also need to be baptized (John 3:5), and then as I noted Christ stated good works also come into play on the issue of salvation.

Although, children and infants can also be baptized so in a sort of odd way saving works can be done before faith. Although I guess it's more works being done to you for your own good.

[Constantinopolis]

Eh, it's complicated. As I understand it, Qatar is one of the better ones, relatively speaking. The Emirates are mixed (it depends on the Emirate, and whether you are a rich tourist or a guest worker - citizens can't be Christians, of course). I have no idea about Bahrain. And Saudi Arabia... is hell.

Christians are not oppressed in the Emirates, nor does it particularly matter which Emirate you're in, though it's true that some Emirates (notably Sharjah, where the Russian Orthodox Church has crosses on its domes that are lit up for Easter) are slightly more relaxed about visible symbols of Christianity than others.

There are some manual labourer Christians from South Asia, but even the latter are catered to via various Indian Christian denominations. Every single Emirate - even little Umm al Quwain - has at least one church, often several. Abu Dhabi actively promotes the ruins of a Nestorian Monastery on Sir Bani Yas island as a tourist destination, and will be (I might have some inside knowledge on this one) actively incorporating the latter into displays in a prominent new museum in the original Abu Dhabi Fort. A published history of Christianity in the UAE written by an Anglican priest based in the country is openly on sale in the country's bookshops. Outside of Christianity, Dubai even has a Hindu temple directly behind the Emir's central offices.

Having worked in both Qatar and the UAE (and lived in the latter), I can state with some confidence that the Emirates are more relaxed overall about non-Muslim religions than Qatar, and about the sale of both alcohol and pork. Well, except Judaism; and even then they'll make an exception for plastering at least one Orthodox Jew all over real estate billboards - namely Ivanka Trump.

Also, there's one serious factual error in an earlier post of Const's. The UAE emirates are not Wahhabist states in any way, shape, or form; the ruling families of both Abu Dhabi and Dubai adhere to the mainstream Maliki school of Sunni Islam, which is entirely distinct from Saudi interpretations of Islam. It's Saudi Arabia and Qatar that are the two Wahhabist monarchies in the Gulf, though the Qataris aren't nearly as militant in their Wahhabism than the Saudis.

I'm not going to pretend it's all sweetness and light; anyone caught trying to convert Muslims to Christianity is likely to find themselves politely escorted to the nearest airport in the UAE; so proselytising is out. But there are no real restrictions on worship within churches, and there are far of the latter in the UAE than in Qatar.

With the exception of Bahrain and Kuwait, all Christians in the Gulf are 'foreigners'. Bahrain and Kuwait both have native Christian Arab families that are full citizens of their respective countries. Bahrain even has a tiny native Jewish community. The current Bahraini ambassador to the UK is a native Christian; a recent Bahraini ambassador to the US was a native Jewish citizen. Both are/were also women.

I stand corrected. Thank you! My knowledge of the Gulf states is very sparse.

[Auristania]

What is the difference between Catholicism and Protestanism

We are the One True Church TM and they ain't.

Both sides say this, so it must be true.

Likewise, what is the similiarity between Catholicism and Protestanism
We are the One True Church TM and they ain't.

[Stonok]

How's it going, guys. Nice that I can see some of the guys from the older threads are still about.

Constantinopolis and Tarsonis Survivors specifically.

[Salus Maior]

How's it going, guys. Nice that I can see some of the guys from the older threads are still about.

Constantinopolis and Tarsonis Survivors specifically.

Wow, you're so old I don't even recognize you

[Luminesa]

Christians are not oppressed in the Emirates, nor does it particularly matter which Emirate you're in, though it's true that some Emirates (notably Sharjah, where the Russian Orthodox Church has crosses on its domes that are lit up for Easter) are slightly more relaxed about visible symbols of Christianity than others.

There are some manual labourer Christians from South Asia, but even the latter are catered to via various Indian Christian denominations. Every single Emirate - even little Umm al Quwain - has at least one church, often several. Abu Dhabi actively promotes the ruins of a Nestorian Monastery on Sir Bani Yas island as a tourist destination, and will be (I might have some inside knowledge on this one) actively incorporating the latter into displays in a prominent new museum in the original Abu Dhabi Fort. A published history of Christianity in the UAE written by an Anglican priest based in the country is openly on sale in the country's bookshops. Outside of Christianity, Dubai even has a Hindu temple directly behind the Emir's central offices.

Having worked in both Qatar and the UAE (and lived in the latter), I can state with some confidence that the Emirates are more relaxed overall about non-Muslim religions than Qatar, and about the sale of both alcohol and pork. Well, except Judaism; and even then they'll make an exception for plastering at least one Orthodox Jew all over real estate billboards - namely Ivanka Trump.

Also, there's one serious factual error in an earlier post of Const's. The UAE emirates are not Wahhabist states in any way, shape, or form; the ruling families of both Abu Dhabi and Dubai adhere to the mainstream Maliki school of Sunni Islam, which is entirely distinct from Saudi interpretations of Islam. It's Saudi Arabia and Qatar that are the two Wahhabist monarchies in the Gulf, though the Qataris aren't nearly as militant in their Wahhabism than the Saudis.

I'm not going to pretend it's all sweetness and light; anyone caught trying to convert Muslims to Christianity is likely to find themselves politely escorted to the nearest airport in the UAE; so proselytising is out. But there are no real restrictions on worship within churches, and there are far of the latter in the UAE than in Qatar.

With the exception of Bahrain and Kuwait, all Christians in the Gulf are 'foreigners'. Bahrain and Kuwait both have native Christian Arab families that are full citizens of their respective countries. Bahrain even has a tiny native Jewish community. The current Bahraini ambassador to the UK is a native Christian; a recent Bahraini ambassador to the US was a native Jewish citizen. Both are/were also women.

I stand corrected. Thank you! My knowledge of the Gulf states is very sparse.

This was helpful to me as well. I have some classmates from the UAE in one of my classes, and I had no idea about their home-countries. This is helpful.

[Stonok]

How's it going, guys. Nice that I can see some of the guys from the older threads are still about.

Constantinopolis and Tarsonis Survivors specifically.

Wow, you're so old I don't even recognize you

Not quite, though it's been a long two-ish years since I've really been involved in these threads.

I'm not sure the people I named recognize me either, but perhaps a brief reflection will remind them: I was the heretic who accidentally turned himself into a nontrinitarian a couple people referred to as a "Revived Classical Arian". Tarsonis argued with me over it and beat me handily as I recall, and I am thus a Trinitarian once more.

I also strawman'd Constantinopolis' Marxist allegiance at one point, though it wasn't my intention.

[Angleter]

The Christian population of Israel is growing.

So is the Muslim population, and for the same reason: Arabs (Muslims and Christians) are having so many more children than ethnic Jews (especially atheist Jews) that, even accounting for the fact that many Christians and Muslims are leaving, those remaining behind are still growing faster than the ethnic Jewish population.

Zionists consider this a major problem that they want to deal with, somehow. They can't agree on how.

Basically, their problem is that secular Jews - who make up the largest segment of Israel's population and have traditionally formed its political and economic elite - are barely reproducing at all, by Middle Eastern standards. Religious Jews, on the other hand, have large families, and they are going to take over Israel sooner or later if this trend keeps up. Secular Zionists are freaked out about that, too.

In any case, the fact that there is so much concern in Israel about which ethnic or religious group might become a majority in the future, should tell you all you need to know about the nature of that state. Mainstream Israeli politics features a concern for ensuring that the majority ethnic group doesn't get replaced by minorities. The sort of concern that, in the West, is the typical mark of White Nationalism. Israel is an ethno-nationalist state.

I can't find any evidence to suggest that Arabs (Christian or otherwise) are emigrating from Israel in particularly large numbers. In 2005 they were a disproportionately small number of emigrants, while in the United States they form a proportionate 20% of the Israeli expat community.

As for the whole obsession with demographics, this isn't especially abnormal. Within the Arab world alone, Lebanon hasn't had a census for 85 years for fear of what it might turn up, Iraq has constantly put off a census for the same reason, neither Morocco and Algeria count the size of their Berber populations, and neither Syria nor Egypt are keen to count their Christian populations (although Egyptian authorities consistently low-ball their estimates). Gulf states are more relaxed about these things, but that's generally because it's virtually impossible to obtain citizenship there (and very easy to lose it). Unless, of course, you're Bahrain, where the Sunni regime happily grants citizenship to foreign Sunnis who fight in its military, thus systematically reducing the country's Shia majority (this helped spark the uprising of 2011).

With a handful of exceptions, Arab countries are happy to operate as sectarian Arab nationalist tyrannies regardless of the demographics. I don't think that's an improvement on Israel.

Also, outside of the Middle East, Denmark passed a resolution opposing 'Danes' becoming a minority in residential areas; Singapore operates an elaborate system of ethnic quotas at neighbourhood level; Turkey refuses to count its Kurds or Christians; Estonia, Latvia, and Kazakhstan have all been eager to keep their Russian populations down; Macedonia hasn't held a census since 2002 for fear of what it might turn up; Bosnia's most recent census results were delayed for three years and are still disputed; Northern Irish Protestants worry about the prospect of a Catholic majority; Quebec restricts English-language education in order to maintain its Francophone majority; and so on.

The thing which distinguishes Israel, and all of those countries which worry about demographic threats, from most other Western nation-states is the actual demographics. I've no doubt that if Britain or France or Germany had, let's say, a Muslim minority at 25% and rapidly rising, then they'd be similarly obsessed with demographics.

[Diopolis]

Lesbian Methodist bishop says very strange things.

By the standards of lesbian bishops, that is a positively normal thing to say.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Lesbian Methodist bishop says very strange things.

By the standards of lesbian bishops, that is a positively normal thing to say.

I don't really follow it very much. I only shared this because it showed up on my facebook feed.

[New Visayan Islands]

Yes. I think that's the only reason we're not unified yet though I did find this article, thought it made a lot of sense.

https://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2010/september-october/the-daughter-of-babylon

My reaction to reading that article:

Speaking of reactions:

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

My reaction to reading that article:

Speaking of reactions:

best reaction on earth

[Nordengrund]

As long as it's on the terms of the Eastern Orthodox Church, of course.

And that's the way it works. Everyone wants a unified Church, but no one wants to compromise their theology.

I'm pretty lenient doctrinally. For example, I'm a trinitarian, but I don't think that belief alone would affect salvation. I think non trinitarians can be true and saved Christians.

Of course, sound doctrine is important, but only when it comes to the essentials of the faith. We can get it all right with knowledge and doctrine and still miss the point of Christianity, which centers around love.

[United Muscovite Nations]

And that's the way it works. Everyone wants a unified Church, but no one wants to compromise their theology.

I'm pretty lenient doctrinally. For example, I'm a trinitarian, but I don't think that belief alone would affect salvation. I think non trinitarians can be true and saved Christians.

Of course, sound doctrine is important, but only when it comes to the essentials of the faith. We can get it all right with knowledge and doctrine and still miss the point of Christianity, which centers around love.

I'm lenient when it comes to laypeople, but priests and bishops must be doctrinally orthodox. Orthodoxy of the clergy is necessary for maintenence of orthopraxy.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I'm pretty lenient doctrinally. For example, I'm a trinitarian, but I don't think that belief alone would affect salvation. I think non trinitarians can be true and saved Christians.

Of course, sound doctrine is important, but only when it comes to the essentials of the faith. We can get it all right with knowledge and doctrine and still miss the point of Christianity, which centers around love.

I'm lenient when it comes to laypeople, but priests and bishops must be doctrinally orthodox. Orthodoxy of the clergy is necessary for maintenence of orthopraxy.

Essentially this, but you know, Catholic.

[Salus Maior]

As long as it's on the terms of the Eastern Orthodox Church, of course.

And that's the way it works. Everyone wants a unified Church, but no one wants to compromise their theology.

Honestly, the only way we're going to have total unity is if God makes it happen.

Or, in the case of some schisms, already have similar enough belief to heal it. Like Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox.