NationStates

The of Japan wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:
And other churches.

Goddamn, you've barely read anything.

and other churches, yeah, but that doesn't mean Christians are worse off than in most other arab countries.

Lebanon's president is a Christian (in fact, the office is reserved for Christians). Tariq Aziz, who was the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq from 1979 to 2003 under Saddam Hussein, was a Christian. As I mentioned earlier, the founder of Ba'athism was a Christian. Christians are part of Bashar al-Assad's support base in Syria, and Assad actively tries to court Christian support by doing things like visiting churches. Egypt's military dictator totally-democratic president, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, does the same - and he has repeatedly stated his support for Egypt's beleaguered Copts. King Abdullah of Jordan has recently financed a major renovation of the holiest site in Christendom, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem.

Secular Arab governments don't oppress Christians. Wahhabi monarchies oppress Christians - places like Saudi Arabia or the Emirates - but Wahhabi monarchies are cartoonishly evil in general.

Constantinopolis wrote:

The of Japan wrote:and other churches, yeah, but that doesn't mean Christians are worse off than in most other arab countries.

Lebanon's president is a Christian (in fact, the office is reserved for Christians). Tariq Aziz, who was the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq from 1979 to 2003 under Saddam Hussein, was a Christian. As I mentioned earlier, the founder of Ba'athism was a Christian. Christians are part of Bashar al-Assad's support base in Syria, and Assad actively tries to court Christian support by doing things like visiting churches. Egypt's military dictator totally-democratic president, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, does the same - and he has repeatedly stated his support for Egypt's beleaguered Copts. King Abdullah of Jordan has recently financed a major renovation of the holiest site in Christendom, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem.

Secular Arab governments don't oppress Christians. Wahhabi monarchies oppress Christians - places like Saudi Arabia or the Emirates - but Wahhabi monarchies are cartoonishly evil in general.

Amen to that last sentence

Constantinopolis wrote:

The of Japan wrote:and other churches, yeah, but that doesn't mean Christians are worse off than in most other arab countries.

Lebanon's president is a Christian (in fact, the office is reserved for Christians). Tariq Aziz, who was the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq from 1979 to 2003 under Saddam Hussein, was a Christian. As I mentioned earlier, the founder of Ba'athism was a Christian. Christians are part of Bashar al-Assad's support base in Syria, and Assad actively tries to court Christian support by doing things like visiting churches. Egypt's military dictator totally-democratic president, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, does the same - and he has repeatedly stated his support for Egypt's beleaguered Copts. King Abdullah of Jordan has recently financed a major renovation of the holiest site in Christendom, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem.

Secular Arab governments don't oppress Christians. Wahhabi monarchies oppress Christians - places like Saudi Arabia or the Emirates - but Wahhabi monarchies are cartoonishly evil in general.

Didn't Arch say a long time ago that Christians don't have it too bad in the Gulf states? Well, because most of them are foreigners.

Salus Maior wrote:

Constantinopolis wrote:Lebanon's president is a Christian (in fact, the office is reserved for Christians). Tariq Aziz, who was the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq from 1979 to 2003 under Saddam Hussein, was a Christian. As I mentioned earlier, the founder of Ba'athism was a Christian. Christians are part of Bashar al-Assad's support base in Syria, and Assad actively tries to court Christian support by doing things like visiting churches. Egypt's military dictator totally-democratic president, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, does the same - and he has repeatedly stated his support for Egypt's beleaguered Copts. King Abdullah of Jordan has recently financed a major renovation of the holiest site in Christendom, the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem.

Secular Arab governments don't oppress Christians. Wahhabi monarchies oppress Christians - places like Saudi Arabia or the Emirates - but Wahhabi monarchies are cartoonishly evil in general.

Didn't Arch say a long time ago that Christians don't have it too bad in the Gulf states? Well, because most of them are foreigners.

Eh, it's complicated. As I understand it, Qatar is one of the better ones, relatively speaking. The Emirates are mixed (it depends on the Emirate, and whether you are a rich tourist or a guest worker - citizens can't be Christians, of course). I have no idea about Bahrain. And Saudi Arabia... is hell.

Constantinopolis wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:Didn't Arch say a long time ago that Christians don't have it too bad in the Gulf states? Well, because most of them are foreigners.

Eh, it's complicated. As I understand it, Qatar is one of the better ones, relatively speaking. The Emirates are mixed (it depends on the Emirate, and whether you are a rich tourist or a guest worker - citizens can't be Christians, of course). I have no idea about Bahrain. And Saudi Arabia... is hell.

IIRC, being a Christian while being a citizen is illegal in SA, and converting to Christianity from Islam is a capital offense.

Constantinopolis wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:Didn't Arch say a long time ago that Christians don't have it too bad in the Gulf states? Well, because most of them are foreigners.

Eh, it's complicated. As I understand it, Qatar is one of the better ones, relatively speaking. The Emirates are mixed (it depends on the Emirate, and whether you are a rich tourist or a guest worker - citizens can't be Christians, of course). I have no idea about Bahrain. And Saudi Arabia... is hell.

We should just put King Abdullah of Jordan in charge of Arabia. He's cool.

United Muscovite Nations wrote:

Constantinopolis wrote:Eh, it's complicated. As I understand it, Qatar is one of the better ones, relatively speaking. The Emirates are mixed (it depends on the Emirate, and whether you are a rich tourist or a guest worker - citizens can't be Christians, of course). I have no idea about Bahrain. And Saudi Arabia... is hell.

IIRC, being a Christian while being a citizen is illegal in SA, and converting to Christianity from Islam is a capital offense.

That seems to be a common law in Islamic countries.

Salus Maior wrote:

United Muscovite Nations wrote:IIRC, being a Christian while being a citizen is illegal in SA, and converting to Christianity from Islam is a capital offense.

That seems to be a common law in Islamic countries.

and women have shit rights, feminists should focus on middle east instead of going on tamper tantrums about fake or trumped up issues.

The of Japan wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:
That seems to be a common law in Islamic countries.

and women have shit rights, feminists should focus on middle east instead of going on tamper tantrums about fake or trumped up issues.

Because, as we all know, you're not allowed to complain about something being bad in your country as long as there are other countries in the world where that thing is far worse.

Constantinopolis wrote:

The of Japan wrote:and women have shit rights, feminists should focus on middle east instead of going on tamper tantrums about fake or trumped up issues.

Because, as we all know, you're not allowed to complain about something being bad in your country as long as there are other countries in the world where that thing is far worse.

it was baaaad in the past, but feminism has achieved its purpose in the west and helped greatly further womens rights. nowdays, I'm not so sure what they are even trying to do.

Salus Maior wrote:

Constantinopolis wrote:Eh, it's complicated. As I understand it, Qatar is one of the better ones, relatively speaking. The Emirates are mixed (it depends on the Emirate, and whether you are a rich tourist or a guest worker - citizens can't be Christians, of course). I have no idea about Bahrain. And Saudi Arabia... is hell.

We should just put King Abdullah of Jordan in charge of Arabia. He's cool.

Oh, wouldn't that be sweet vengeance.

Because, you see... his family ruled Mecca and Medina for centuries, until being kicked out in the early 20th century by the House of Saud.

#MakeArabiaHashemiteAgain

Also, in case anyone's wondering why I think King Abdullah's so cool, here ya go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_jrH_nWTqc

Constantinopolis wrote:

The of Japan wrote:and women have shit rights, feminists should focus on middle east instead of going on tamper tantrums about fake or trumped up issues.

Because, as we all know, you're not allowed to complain about something being bad in your country as long as there are other countries in the world where that thing is far worse.

I'm gonna play middle-ground and say that Japan-chan has a point, women in the Middle East have little to no rights and need to be granted them. And modern feminism in the West has very much ignored such women, except when it suits them to bring them into the spotlight.

Luminesa wrote:

Constantinopolis wrote:Because, as we all know, you're not allowed to complain about something being bad in your country as long as there are other countries in the world where that thing is far worse.

I'm gonna play middle-ground and say that Japan-chan has a point, women in the Middle East have little to no rights and need to be granted them. And modern feminism in the West has very much ignored such women, except when it suits them to bring them into the spotlight.

But there's basically nothing that a political movement in the West can do about women's rights in the Middle East. That's a problem for Middle Eastern political movements to deal with. Social change can't come from outside - except in the form of conquest, and I'm pretty sure no one would advocate that even if it could work (which it can't; see Iraq).

Modern feminism in the West has a lot of flaws, but the fact that it focuses on things it can actually change - as opposed to things it can't change - is not one of those flaws.

Constantinopolis wrote:

Luminesa wrote:I'm gonna play middle-ground and say that Japan-chan has a point, women in the Middle East have little to no rights and need to be granted them. And modern feminism in the West has very much ignored such women, except when it suits them to bring them into the spotlight.

But there's basically nothing that a political movement in the West can do about women's rights in the Middle East. That's a problem for Middle Eastern political movements to deal with. Social change can't come from outside - except in the form of conquest, and I'm pretty sure no one would advocate that even if it could work (which it can't; see Iraq).

Modern feminism in the West has a lot of flaws, but the fact that it focuses on things it can actually change - as opposed to things it can't change - is not one of those flaws.

they could at least support feminist organizations in said countries.

Constantinopolis wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:Didn't Arch say a long time ago that Christians don't have it too bad in the Gulf states? Well, because most of them are foreigners.

Eh, it's complicated. As I understand it, Qatar is one of the better ones, relatively speaking. The Emirates are mixed (it depends on the Emirate, and whether you are a rich tourist or a guest worker - citizens can't be Christians, of course). I have no idea about Bahrain. And Saudi Arabia... is hell.

I havr several family members who've worked in Qatar and Dubai, and the general attitude is that Qatar is the best place in the Gulf to be a Christian (Bahrain ain't so bad either). No dress codes for women (apart from the usual "TOO MUCH SKIN!!!!" regulations), you're free to worship in the privacy of your own homes, etc. To top it off, there are Christian churches in Qatar (a Catholic one and IIRC there's an Orthodox and an Anglican church - or, at least, there are plans to build them) that regularly hold services. But, as is common in many Gulf states, you can't wear any Christian religious symbols, churches can't ring bells, and they have to keep reminding Christians that converting to Islam is free and has so many perks that come with it.

All of that, of course, speaks nothing about the state of Christians and migrant workers in the region, who are basically treated like slaves, paid so much less, banks and bosses are free to take their passports from them, etc.

Constantinopolis wrote:

Hakons wrote:Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Christian sites can be visited freely by foreigners, but the native Christians of the region (who are Arabs) are persecuted by Israel and do NOT have free access to the holy sites (various passes and permits are needed).

Israel is perfectly fine with Christian tourists and pilgrims, but it is dedicated to ethnically cleansing its territory of non-Jews, including the native Christian Arab population.

Secular Arab dictators are far better for Christianity than Israel is. After all, the founder of Ba'athism, Michel Aflaq, was a Christian.

Did he also sell insurance?

Arcanstotska wrote:

Constantinopolis wrote:Christian sites can be visited freely by foreigners, but the native Christians of the region (who are Arabs) are persecuted by Israel and do NOT have free access to the holy sites (various passes and permits are needed).

Israel is perfectly fine with Christian tourists and pilgrims, but it is dedicated to ethnically cleansing its territory of non-Jews, including the native Christian Arab population.

Secular Arab dictators are far better for Christianity than Israel is. After all, the founder of Ba'athism, Michel Aflaq, was a Christian.

That's outright religious persecution. Israelis need to open up more, because I'm pretty sure God is NOT happy with them right now.

Most Israelis don't particularly care about what God thinks of them anymore. It's worth noting they get away with this for three reasons:
1: They play the "nazi persecution" card like a trap card in yugioh
2: The UN
3: US foreign policy

Constantinopolis wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:Didn't Arch say a long time ago that Christians don't have it too bad in the Gulf states? Well, because most of them are foreigners.

Eh, it's complicated. As I understand it, Qatar is one of the better ones, relatively speaking. The Emirates are mixed (it depends on the Emirate, and whether you are a rich tourist or a guest worker - citizens can't be Christians, of course). I have no idea about Bahrain. And Saudi Arabia... is hell.

From what my MA buddy has told me Bahrain is relatively worldly for a state so reliant on Arabia. They serve and import alcohol and pork products, and as a major trading hub (the entire reason MAs are frequently sent there) they have A LOT of interaction with foreign culture. They might be a Muslim nation but they are very secular operating and Christians shouldn't find too much trouble there. (Case in point one of his favorite places to eat is a burger joint owned by a Christian).

Constantinopolis wrote:

Luminesa wrote:I'm gonna play middle-ground and say that Japan-chan has a point, women in the Middle East have little to no rights and need to be granted them. And modern feminism in the West has very much ignored such women, except when it suits them to bring them into the spotlight.

But there's basically nothing that a political movement in the West can do about women's rights in the Middle East. That's a problem for Middle Eastern political movements to deal with. Social change can't come from outside - except in the form of conquest, and I'm pretty sure no one would advocate that even if it could work (which it can't; see Iraq).

Modern feminism in the West has a lot of flaws, but the fact that it focuses on things it can actually change - as opposed to things it can't change - is not one of those flaws.

Ha, it doesn't even do that. It changes things it shouldn't, ignores things it shouldn't, and throws a tantrum when it doesn't get its way.

Luminesa wrote:

Constantinopolis wrote:Because, as we all know, you're not allowed to complain about something being bad in your country as long as there are other countries in the world where that thing is far worse.

I'm gonna play middle-ground and say that Japan-chan has a point, women in the Middle East have little to no rights and need to be granted them. And modern feminism in the West has very much ignored such women, except when it suits them to bring them into the spotlight.

I think we're getting slightly off-topic here.

So the Iraq War was basically the 4th Crusade?

Hakons wrote:So the Iraq War was basically the 4th Crusade?

No. The Iraq War was basically Bush Jr. going "THEY GOT OIL WMD'S!"
Plus the 4th Crusade was the Sacking of Constantinople in 1203. You can read about it here

The Alexanderians wrote:

Constantinopolis wrote:Christian sites can be visited freely by foreigners, but the native Christians of the region (who are Arabs) are persecuted by Israel and do NOT have free access to the holy sites (various passes and permits are needed).

Israel is perfectly fine with Christian tourists and pilgrims, but it is dedicated to ethnically cleansing its territory of non-Jews, including the native Christian Arab population.

Secular Arab dictators are far better for Christianity than Israel is. After all, the founder of Ba'athism, Michel Aflaq, was a Christian.

Did he also sell insurance?

Arcanstotska wrote:That's outright religious persecution. Israelis need to open up more, because I'm pretty sure God is NOT happy with them right now.

Most Israelis don't particularly care about what God thinks of them anymore. It's worth noting they get away with this for three reasons:
1: They play the "nazi persecution" card like a trap card in yugioh
2: The UN
3: US foreign policy

Constantinopolis wrote:Eh, it's complicated. As I understand it, Qatar is one of the better ones, relatively speaking. The Emirates are mixed (it depends on the Emirate, and whether you are a rich tourist or a guest worker - citizens can't be Christians, of course). I have no idea about Bahrain. And Saudi Arabia... is hell.

From what my MA buddy has told me Bahrain is relatively worldly for a state so reliant on Arabia. They serve and import alcohol and pork products, and as a major trading hub (the entire reason MAs are frequently sent there) they have A LOT of interaction with foreign culture. They might be a Muslim nation but they are very secular operating and Christians shouldn't find too much trouble there. (Case in point one of his favorite places to eat is a burger joint owned by a Christian).

Constantinopolis wrote:But there's basically nothing that a political movement in the West can do about women's rights in the Middle East. That's a problem for Middle Eastern political movements to deal with. Social change can't come from outside - except in the form of conquest, and I'm pretty sure no one would advocate that even if it could work (which it can't; see Iraq).

Modern feminism in the West has a lot of flaws, but the fact that it focuses on things it can actually change - as opposed to things it can't change - is not one of those flaws.

Ha, it doesn't even do that. It changes things it shouldn't, ignores things it shouldn't, and throws a tantrum when it doesn't get its way.

In the case of the burger-joint though, really, if you have enough money/make enough money, you can really just get away with whatever you want. A working-class Christian is going to be in a lot more trouble over worshipping openly than a millionaire Christian like a Joel Osteen who can simply pay people to step-off his back.

Salus Maior wrote:

The of Japan wrote:and other churches, yeah, but that doesn't mean Christians are worse off than in most other arab countries.

Yeah, I guess that's why most Israeli Christians are leaving the country.

The Christian population of Israel is growing.

Angleter wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:
Yeah, I guess that's why most Israeli Christians are leaving the country.

The Christian population of Israel is growing.

So is the Muslim population, and for the same reason: Arabs (Muslims and Christians) are having so many more children than ethnic Jews (especially atheist Jews) that, even accounting for the fact that many Christians and Muslims are leaving, those remaining behind are still growing faster than the ethnic Jewish population.

Zionists consider this a major problem that they want to deal with, somehow. They can't agree on how.

Basically, their problem is that secular Jews - who make up the largest segment of Israel's population and have traditionally formed its political and economic elite - are barely reproducing at all, by Middle Eastern standards. Religious Jews, on the other hand, have large families, and they are going to take over Israel sooner or later if this trend keeps up. Secular Zionists are freaked out about that, too.

In any case, the fact that there is so much concern in Israel about which ethnic or religious group might become a majority in the future, should tell you all you need to know about the nature of that state. Mainstream Israeli politics features a concern for ensuring that the majority ethnic group doesn't get replaced by minorities. The sort of concern that, in the West, is the typical mark of White Nationalism. Israel is an ethno-nationalist state.

Dylar wrote:

Hakons wrote:So the Iraq War was basically the 4th Crusade?

No. The Iraq War was basically Bush Jr. going "THEY GOT OIL WMD'S!"
Plus the 4th Crusade was the Sacking of Constantinople in 1203. You can read about it here

I was drawing a comparison between the two conflicts. We essentially sacked Iraq, and it led to a less stable Middle East that has been harmful to many Christians.

Constantinopolis wrote:

Angleter wrote:The Christian population of Israel is growing.

So is the Muslim population, and for the same reason: Arabs (Muslims and Christians) are having so many more children than ethnic Jews (especially atheist Jews) that, even accounting for the fact that many Christians and Muslims are leaving, those remaining behind are still growing faster than the ethnic Jewish population.

Zionists consider this a major problem that they want to deal with, somehow. They can't agree on how.

Basically, their problem is that secular Jews - who make up the largest segment of Israel's population and have traditionally formed its political and economic elite - are barely reproducing at all, by Middle Eastern standards. Religious Jews, on the other hand, have large families, and they are going to take over Israel sooner or later if this trend keeps up. Secular Zionists are freaked out about that, too.

In any case, the fact that there is so much concern in Israel about which ethnic or religious group might become a majority in the future, should tell you all you need to know about the nature of that state. Mainstream Israeli politics features a concern for ensuring that the majority ethnic group doesn't get replaced by minorities. The sort of concern that, in the West, is the typical mark of White Nationalism. Israel is an ethno-nationalist state.

I think the entire point of Israel is to be a Jewish ethno-state. This is why they have their illegal settlement program, to permanently change the demographics of the region.