The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

[The Parkus Empire]

Not unless I was trying to be sensual and profess my love to them over their entire being bit by bit, but I still love and treasure someone's hand in loving them, as it is part of their being.

The hand has no volition of it's own though. You can like their hand, but you love who it's attached to, not the hand in and of itself.

The hand is part of whom it is attached to, as is volition, which is impaired when seperated from the hand.

[Northern Davincia]

Hello my Christian brothers and sisters!

I have a question for you all. How do Christians feel about pantheism and panentheism? In the Islamic Discussion Thread, I and another muslim were debating whether or not they would violate our concept of Tawhid (oneness of God), among other things like your Trinity (which I actually agree with, and don't see as a violation of tawhid. ). Do you guys view pantheism as blasphemy?

We sufis muslims see no incompatiblity in this with the nature of God, infact we see it as a near necessity.

Pantheism/Panentheism is heresy. There's only one God.

Scripturally, historically, scripturally this is clear.

I see no contradiction with pantheism and one God.

[Menassa]

Pantheism/Panentheism is heresy. There's only one God.

Scripturally, historically, scripturally this is clear.

I see no contradiction with pantheism and one God.

Pantheism removes the personal and distinct nature of God while Panentheism maintains God's distinctness.

[Ros Cre]

Pantheism/Panentheism is heresy. There's only one God.

Scripturally, historically, scripturally this is clear.

I see no contradiction with pantheism and one God.

There isn't a contradiction with pantheism and one god but there is a contradiction with pantheism and the Christian (or Abrahamic) God. Because pantheists say all of reality is the divinity you could easily say that reality is divinity and divinity is god, meaning god is reality. But it rejects the notion that God is a distinct being, seperate from his creation, and that is fundamental to the understanding of Christianity's God - that he is seperate and distinct from His creation. To say God is His creation is to fall into heresy.

[Menassa]

I see no contradiction with pantheism and one God.

There isn't a contradiction with pantheism and one god but there is a contradiction with pantheism and the Christian (or Abrahamic) God. Because pantheists say all of reality is the divinity you could easily say that reality is divinity and divinity is god, meaning god is reality. But it rejects the notion that God is a distinct being, seperate from his creation, and that is fundamental to the understanding of Christianity's God - that he is seperate and distinct from His creation. To say God is His creation is to fall into heresy.

What is meant by Old Catholic, are there new Catholics?

[Ros Cre]

What is meant by Old Catholic, are there new Catholics?

xD Old Catholicism or the Old Catholic Church is a group of Churches that broke away from the Roman Catholic Church over doctrines. We reject papal infallibility as defined by the First Vatican Council. Because the Old Catholic Church broke away at the time of Vatican I we also reject things from Vatican II in the 1960s - such as our Mass being traditional in Latin and the priest faces ad orientem (the same direction as the people, instead of facing the people like in the new Mass of the Roman Catholic Church). Old Catholics are mostly found in the Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Poland but there is an Old Catholic Church of Great Britain and Ireland - however the Old Catholic Church is in communion with the Anglicans and recognise the Church of England, Church of Ireland and the Episcopal Church of the United States as the valid Catholic Church in their respective countries, and not the Roman Catholic Church in those countries - despite having parishes in England and Ireland (but there are not Old Catholic parishes in America, so the Episcopal Church is the only valid Catholic Church within the USA according to the Old Catholic Church).

• adherence to the ancient Catholic faith
• maintenance of the rights of Catholics
• rejection of new Roman Catholic dogmas
• adherence to the constitutions of the ancient Church with repudiation of every dogma of faith not in harmony with the actual consciousness of the Church
• reform of the Church with constitutional participation of the laity
• preparation of the way for reunion of the Christian confessions
• reform of the training and position of the clergy
• adherence to the State against the attacks of Ultramontanism
• rejection of the Society of Jesus
• claim to the real property of the Church

[Diopolis]

What is meant by Old Catholic, are there new Catholics?

xD Old Catholicism or the Old Catholic Church is a group of Churches that broke away from the Roman Catholic Church over doctrines. We reject papal infallibility as defined by the First Vatican Council. Because the Old Catholic Church broke away at the time of Vatican I we also reject things from Vatican II in the 1960s - such as our Mass being traditional in Latin and the priest faces ad orientem (the same direction as the people, instead of facing the people like in the new Mass of the Roman Catholic Church). Old Catholics are mostly found in the Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Poland but there is an Old Catholic Church of Great Britain and Ireland - however the Old Catholic Church is in communion with the Anglicans and recognise the Church of England, Church of Ireland and the Episcopal Church of the United States as the valid Catholic Church in their respective countries, and not the Roman Catholic Church in those countries - despite having parishes in England and Ireland (but there are not Old Catholic parishes in America, so the Episcopal Church is the only valid Catholic Church within the USA according to the Old Catholic Church).

• adherence to the ancient Catholic faith
• maintenance of the rights of Catholics
• rejection of new Roman Catholic dogmas
• adherence to the constitutions of the ancient Church with repudiation of every dogma of faith not in harmony with the actual consciousness of the Church
• reform of the Church with constitutional participation of the laity
• preparation of the way for reunion of the Christian confessions
• reform of the training and position of the clergy
• adherence to the State against the attacks of Ultramontanism
• rejection of the Society of Jesus
• claim to the real property of the Church

The PNCC isn't old Catholic?

[Ros Cre]

xD Old Catholicism or the Old Catholic Church is a group of Churches that broke away from the Roman Catholic Church over doctrines. We reject papal infallibility as defined by the First Vatican Council. Because the Old Catholic Church broke away at the time of Vatican I we also reject things from Vatican II in the 1960s - such as our Mass being traditional in Latin and the priest faces ad orientem (the same direction as the people, instead of facing the people like in the new Mass of the Roman Catholic Church). Old Catholics are mostly found in the Netherlands, Germany, Austria and Poland but there is an Old Catholic Church of Great Britain and Ireland - however the Old Catholic Church is in communion with the Anglicans and recognise the Church of England, Church of Ireland and the Episcopal Church of the United States as the valid Catholic Church in their respective countries, and not the Roman Catholic Church in those countries - despite having parishes in England and Ireland (but there are not Old Catholic parishes in America, so the Episcopal Church is the only valid Catholic Church within the USA according to the Old Catholic Church).

• adherence to the ancient Catholic faith
• maintenance of the rights of Catholics
• rejection of new Roman Catholic dogmas
• adherence to the constitutions of the ancient Church with repudiation of every dogma of faith not in harmony with the actual consciousness of the Church
• reform of the Church with constitutional participation of the laity
• preparation of the way for reunion of the Christian confessions
• reform of the training and position of the clergy
• adherence to the State against the attacks of Ultramontanism
• rejection of the Society of Jesus
• claim to the real property of the Church

The PNCC isn't old Catholic?

The PNCC isn't, actually. It was founded by Polish Immigrants who were members of the PCC (Polish Catholic Church) which is old Catholic but the PNCC is not in communion with the Union of Utrecht (which is the union of Old Catholic Churches) and in recent years the PNCC has sought communion with Rome despite it's doctrinal differences. The PNCC seperated from the Union of Utrecht and has not sought recognition by the UU and do not identify as old Catholics.

There is the Old Catholic Communion of North America (OCCNA) that does identify as old Catholic but they're also not in communion with the UU so they're Old Catholic by self-profession but they're not recognised by the UU at this time, with only the Episcopal Church of the United States and the Anglican Church of Canada being recognised in the area the OCCNA claims to have jurisdiction over.

EDIT:
Just to clarify, the PNCC was in union with the UU until 2003.

[Dylar]

*snip*

So, are Old Catholics considered sedevacantists, or are they their own category?

[Athartha]

*snip*

So, are Old Catholics considered sedevacantists, or are they their own category?

Old Catholics are not Sedevacantists, although some Sedevacantists are Old Catholics. Francis Schuckardt, who was an early proponent of sedevacantism, was ordained by an Old Catholic Bishop, for example. However, Sedevacantism dates to post Vatican II, particularly the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958. Old Catholicism dates to 1870 as a response to Pope Pius IX's Vatican I Council. Most Old Catholics still recognise the Pope but disagree with Vatican I's definition of Papal Infallibility but there are some sedevacantist old Catholics.

Fr. Mike +

[Albrenia]

There sure are a lot of schisms in Catholic history. I guess it comes from being over a thousand years old though.

[Northern Davincia]

There sure are a lot of schisms in Catholic history. I guess it comes from being over a thousand years old though.

I look forward to when those rifts are mended, starting with the Orthodox.

[Diopolis]

The PNCC isn't old Catholic?

The PNCC isn't, actually. It was founded by Polish Immigrants who were members of the PCC (Polish Catholic Church) which is old Catholic but the PNCC is not in communion with the Union of Utrecht (which is the union of Old Catholic Churches) and in recent years the PNCC has sought communion with Rome despite it's doctrinal differences. The PNCC seperated from the Union of Utrecht and has not sought recognition by the UU and do not identify as old Catholics.

There is the Old Catholic Communion of North America (OCCNA) that does identify as old Catholic but they're also not in communion with the UU so they're Old Catholic by self-profession but they're not recognised by the UU at this time, with only the Episcopal Church of the United States and the Anglican Church of Canada being recognised in the area the OCCNA claims to have jurisdiction over.

EDIT:
Just to clarify, the PNCC was in union with the UU until 2003.

I thought old Catholic was defined based on doctrine rather than union with UU?

[Ros Cre]

I thought old Catholic was defined based on doctrine rather than union with UU?

Yes, and no. The UU is the largest union of old Catholic churches; but the importance of being in communion with the UU is because of the Validity of Apostolic Succession. The UU has a valid apostolic succession - one even recnognised by the Roman Catholic Church. Old Catholic Churches outside of the UU can be more... Questionable. Churches associated with OCCNA, for example, tend to be able to trace their lineage back to Utrecht, but there are other churches that identify as old Catholic but cannot trace their lineage back to Utrecht - or anywhere. That's why I place an emphasis on being in communion with the UU, otherwise there's no guarantee of a valid apostolic succession.

In terms of the PNCC, they left the UU over doctrinal disputes themselves. To my knowledge the PNCC no longer identifies as old Catholic but instead as "Independent Catholic" and as they're in dialogue with Rome and from my experience, most PNCC stress this ("we're in dialogue with Rome now, we're no longer a part of the UU").

[The Parkus Empire]

There sure are a lot of schisms in Catholic history. I guess it comes from being over a thousand years old though.

I look forward to when those rifts are mended, starting with the Orthodox.

That will never happen, Catholicism has departed way too far from us since the schism. We can collaborate, though, and I am enthusiastic about that.

[Dylar]

So, are Old Catholics considered sedevacantists, or are they their own category?

Old Catholics are not Sedevacantists, although some Sedevacantists are Old Catholics. Francis Schuckardt, who was an early proponent of sedevacantism, was ordained by an Old Catholic Bishop, for example. However, Sedevacantism dates to post Vatican II, particularly the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958. Old Catholicism dates to 1870 as a response to Pope Pius IX's Vatican I Council. Most Old Catholics still recognise the Pope but disagree with Vatican I's definition of Papal Infallibility but there are some sedevacantist old Catholics.

Fr. Mike +

Ah, that helps a bunch. Thank you, Fr.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I look forward to when those rifts are mended, starting with the Orthodox.

That will never happen, Catholicism has departed way too far from us since the schism. We can collaborate, though, and I am enthusiastic about that.

This. If any major reunions are going to happen, it will the the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox.

[Cill Airne]

So, are Old Catholics considered sedevacantists, or are they their own category?

Old Catholics are not Sedevacantists, although some Sedevacantists are Old Catholics. Francis Schuckardt, who was an early proponent of sedevacantism, was ordained by an Old Catholic Bishop, for example. However, Sedevacantism dates to post Vatican II, particularly the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958. Old Catholicism dates to 1870 as a response to Pope Pius IX's Vatican I Council. Most Old Catholics still recognise the Pope but disagree with Vatican I's definition of Papal Infallibility but there are some sedevacantist old Catholics.

Fr. Mike +

The lesson I'm taking from this is, if you become Pope don't take the papal name of Pius if you don't want to cause a schism in the Church.

[Northern Davincia]

That will never happen, Catholicism has departed way too far from us since the schism. We can collaborate, though, and I am enthusiastic about that.

This. If any major reunions are going to happen, it will the the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox.

Catholicism has not departed from its core values, the spiritual binding given to us by St. Peter. Diverging from papal supremacy is what is truly disappointing.

[Cill Airne]

Catholicism has not departed from its core values, the spiritual binding given to us by St. Peter. Diverging from papal supremacy is what is truly disappointing.

The creation of Papal Supremacy over the national churches in the 11th and 12th centuries is what's truly disappointing.

[Northern Davincia]

Catholicism has not departed from its core values, the spiritual binding given to us by St. Peter. Diverging from papal supremacy is what is truly disappointing.

The creation of Papal Supremacy over the national churches in the 11th and 12th centuries is what's truly disappointing.

The church must remain a universal institution of faith, unified by the pope, not something that can be divided among nations. The church is the body of Christ Himself.

[The Parkus Empire]

The creation of Papal Supremacy over the national churches in the 11th and 12th centuries is what's truly disappointing.

The church must remain a universal institution of faith, unified by the pope, not something that can be divided among nations. The church is the body of Christ Himself.

The Spirit of Truth is what unites the Church. Papists can't into temporal procession.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

The creation of Papal Supremacy over the national churches in the 11th and 12th centuries is what's truly disappointing.

The church must remain a universal institution of faith, unified by the pope, not something that can be divided among nations. The church is the body of Christ Himself.

The pope is not what unifies believers; Christ does.

[Maineiacs]

The church must remain a universal institution of faith, unified by the pope, not something that can be divided among nations. The church is the body of Christ Himself.

The Spirit of Truth is what unites the Church. Papists can't into temporal procession.

Just to note: "Papist" is a slur.

[The Parkus Empire]

The church must remain a universal institution of faith, unified by the pope, not something that can be divided among nations. The church is the body of Christ Himself.

The pope is not what unifies believers; Christ does.

Protestants claim to be guided by Spirit of Truth

Have countless sects teaching contradicting doctrines.