The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Did something happen to this thread? For some reason it's not showing up in my "view your posts" list....

[The Alexanderians]

ah, the good smell of thread... now we can defeat the muslims and retake jerusalem?

Except Jews have Jerusalem.

The Jews don't have Jerusalem, the Israelis have Jerusalem.

[Salus Maior]

Did something happen to this thread? For some reason it's not showing up in my "view your posts" list....

Same. It's reappeared since I've posted though.

[The Blaatschapen]

Did something happen to this thread? For some reason it's not showing up in my "view your posts" list....

Thursdays the forum gets reindexed. The view your posts can become wonky for a but.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Did something happen to this thread? For some reason it's not showing up in my "view your posts" list....

Thursdays the forum gets reindexed. The view your posts can become wonky for a but.

Ah, okay. Thanks.

[Constantinopolis]

So it's time for me to once again make a post in honour of a Great Feast of the Orthodox Church, because this month has two of them in quick succession. Today, September 14th, is when we mark that most imperial of feast days...

☦ The Exaltation of the Holy Cross ☦
(also called the Elevation of the Holy Cross)



This day marks the event in A.D. 326 when the True Cross was first elevated (displayed) in Jerusalem, and exalted by the faithful, after being found by the Empress St. Helena as part of her mission to uncover Christian holy sites and relics in Palestine. The icon of the feast shows the bishop of Jerusalem lifting up the True Cross in front of the people, while St. Helena looks on. Sometimes the Emperor St. Constantine is also depicted, being shown the Cross by his mother, although he was not actually present at the event.

Among all the Great Feasts of the Orthodox Church, this is the only one that celebrates an event which did not happen during the Earthly life of Christ, or of His mother, or of the Apostles. It is the only one that skips forward to an event 300 years later. But it is an event with immense symbolic importance, and probably the single most important thing that happened in the history of the Church after the Apostolic age. It is the triumph of the Cross over the Eagle. The mother of a Roman Emperor, on behalf of her son, bowed down in worship before the Cross of Christ, and dedicated the Empire to Him. That very same Empire that crucified Him, three hundred years later, was at His feet.

Mere decades before this event, the Roman Empire was still in the midst of Diocletian's Great Persecution, which was the most systematic and most murderous attempt to stamp out the Christian faith, and included the martyrdoms of such great saints as St. Catherine of Alexandria, St. George, St. Demetrius, St. Sebastian and St. Euphemia. But the martyrs were victorious and the pagan empire lost. (this, by the way, seems to be the original meaning of the famous image of St. George slaying the dragon, before it acquired a legendary character)

Through suffering and persecution, the Church was victorious. The physical elevation of the True Cross symbolized the rise of the Cross throughout the entire Mediterranean world - the entire known world, to people living at the time.

Jesus Christ conquered Rome. Jesus Christ conquered Rome - the greatest worldly power that had ever existed. ΙΣ ΗΣ ΝΙΚΑ!

In later centuries, this celebration became strongly associated with praying for God to show mercy and favour upon the now-Christian Empire, especially in the Empire's times of need (plague, war, natural disasters). Thus it became, effectively, the official day to celebrate cooperation between Church and State, and to pray for God to grant military victories to Christian armies fighting against pagan/Zoroastrian/Muslim invaders. The idea of St. Helena "raising up the Cross" in Jerusalem became associated with the idea of victorious Christians raising up the banner of the cross. So, in its middle- and late-Byzantine form, this was the holiday to pray for Christian Victory of every kind (military, political, etc).

After the fall of the Byzantine Empire, these connotations of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross faded away, and the holiday became once again focused on remembering the suffering of Christ on the Cross and expressing our gratitude for His sacrifice. Still, this also remains a day to pray for the protection of Christians under persecution, and for Christianity to be victorious in the struggles of this world. It's still the closest thing to a "Victory to Christianity!" Day, and I love that about it.

But it is also a day of humility. Christ gained His victory over death through the utter humiliation of the Cross, so, when we pray for Christian victories, we must also humble ourselves. It was through the blood of martyrs that pagan Rome was defeated by the Cross. So, despite being a Great Feast of the Church, this is a fast day at the same time. And the church services for today include a lot of prostrations (bowing with your forehead to the ground). We must remember our sins, and humble ourselves before the Holy Cross of the Lord.

The hymns for the Exaltation of the Holy Cross are some of my favourite hymns of the entire Church year, so I hope you don't mind if I suggest a rather long list of YouTube videos:

Before Thy Cross (in English; I personally adore this hymn)
Before Thy Cross (also in English, from a live service)
Before Thy Cross (in Russian)
Before Thy Cross (in Georgian - I was pleasantly surprised to find this!)

Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") in multiple languages (part 1)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") in multiple languages (part 2)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") (in English, Arabic and Greek)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") (in English and Russian; from a parish church choir)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") (in Russian; professional choir)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") (in Arabic and Greek; monastery choirs)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") (in Church Slavonic; video from a service at a monastery)

Original text of the Troparion (composed in the early 7th century during the Great Persian War):

Σώσον Κύριε τόν λαόν σου
Καί ευλόγησον τήν κληρονομίαν σου.
Νίκας τοίς Βασιλεύσι κατά βαρβάρων δωρούμενος
Καί τό σόν φυλάττων διά τού Σταυρού σου πολίτευμα.

O Lord, save Your people
And bless Your heritage.
Grant victory to the Emperor over the barbarians
And by the power of Your Cross, preserve Your commonwealth. [lit. "Your polity"; also translatable as "Your state", "Your empire", etc.]

Modern text of the Troparion (one of several slightly-different versions):

O Lord, save Your people
And bless Your heritage.
Grant victory to the faithful over the enemy
And by the power of Your Cross, preserve Your habitation.

(where the original says "Grant victory to the Emperor over the barbarians", modern versions change that to "the faithful" and "the enemy", or something similar; and where the original says "Your commonwealth", in reference to the Empire, modern versions sometimes change that to "Your habitation" or some other reference to the Church)

Kontakion:

As You were voluntarily raised upon the cross for our sake,
Grant mercy to those who are called by Your Name, O Christ God;
Make all Orthodox Christians glad by Your power,
Granting them victories over their adversaries,
By bestowing on them the invincible trophy, Your weapon of peace.

Special hymn for the Holy Cross:

Before Thy cross, we bow down in worship, O Master, and Thy holy Resurrection we glorify. (x3)
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
And Thy holy Resurrection we glorify.
Before Thy cross, we bow down in worship, O Master, and Thy holy Resurrection we glorify.

(always followed by prostrations after - or during - the "before Thy cross" lines, as in this video)

[Hakons]

Except Jews have Jerusalem.

The Jews don't have Jerusalem, the Israelis have Jerusalem.

Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople would be the first goal, along with Anatolia.

[The of Japan]

The Jews don't have Jerusalem, the Israelis have Jerusalem.

Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople would be the first goal, along with Anatolia.

mecca and medina would be great targets

[Hakons]

Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople would be the first goal, along with Anatolia.

mecca and medina would be great targets

We don't have a casus belli for that

[Salus Maior]

Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople would be the first goal, along with Anatolia.

mecca and medina would be great targets

No, let's not.

Unless it's just to kick out the Sauds and maybe put a decent Muslim in charge of Arabia. Like King Abdullah of Jordan, the Stannis of the Middle East.

[Constantinopolis]

Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Christian sites can be visited freely by foreigners, but the native Christians of the region (who are Arabs) are persecuted by Israel and do NOT have free access to the holy sites (various passes and permits are needed).

Israel is perfectly fine with Christian tourists and pilgrims, but it is dedicated to ethnically cleansing its territory of non-Jews, including the native Christian Arab population.

Secular Arab dictators are far better for Christianity than Israel is. After all, the founder of Ba'athism, Michel Aflaq, was a Christian.

[The of Japan]

Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Christian sites can be visited freely by foreigners, but the native Christians of the region (who are Arabs) are persecuted by Israel and do NOT have free access to the holy sites (various passes and permits are needed).

Israel is perfectly fine with Christian tourists and pilgrims, but it is dedicated to ethnically cleansing its territory of non-Jews, including the native Christian Arab population.

Secular Arab dictators are far better for Christianity than Israel is. After all, the founder of Ba'athism, Michel Aflaq, was a Christian.

al aqsa is not directly controlled by Israel anyways, and Palestine should be true state, not puppet of its arab neighbors.

[The Parkus Empire]

Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople

Please...not again....

[The of Japan]

Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople

Please...not again....

konstaniyye is not Christian anymore

[The Parkus Empire]

Please...not again....

konstaniyye is not Christian anymore

I'm sure sacking them will change that.

[The of Japan]

konstaniyye is not Christian anymore

I'm sure sacking them will change that.

4th crusade was petty attempt by venice to dominate eastern mediterranian, that resulted in shit happening. Obviously we wouldn't destroy the city we want to liberate.

[The Parkus Empire]

I'm sure sacking them will change that.

4th crusade was petty attempt by venice to dominate eastern mediterranian, that resulted in shit happening. Obviously we wouldn't destroy the city we want to liberate.

[Salus Maior]

Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople

Please...not again....

Don't worry. We all pretty much realize that returning Constantinople to Christians is unrealistic at this point. As sad as that is.

[The Parkus Empire]

Please...not again....

Don't worry. We all pretty much realize that returning Constantinople to Christians is unrealistic at this point.

It's realistic if you're willing to commit genocide on the people who live there

[Arcanstotska]

Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Christian sites can be visited freely by foreigners, but the native Christians of the region (who are Arabs) are persecuted by Israel and do NOT have free access to the holy sites (various passes and permits are needed).

Israel is perfectly fine with Christian tourists and pilgrims, but it is dedicated to ethnically cleansing its territory of non-Jews, including the native Christian Arab population.

Secular Arab dictators are far better for Christianity than Israel is. After all, the founder of Ba'athism, Michel Aflaq, was a Christian.

That's outright religious persecution. Israelis need to open up more, because I'm pretty sure God is NOT happy with them right now.

[The of Japan]

Don't worry. We all pretty much realize that returning Constantinople to Christians is unrealistic at this point.

It's realistic if you're willing to commit genocide on the people who live there

just do what the soviets did to the germans in east Prussia, west Prussia, east pommern, Silesia, and the Sudetenland after WWII

[Salus Maior]

Don't worry. We all pretty much realize that returning Constantinople to Christians is unrealistic at this point.

It's realistic if you're willing to commit genocide on the people who live there

And you're advocating for that, Mr. Pacifist?

[The of Japan]

Christian sites can be visited freely by foreigners, but the native Christians of the region (who are Arabs) are persecuted by Israel and do NOT have free access to the holy sites (various passes and permits are needed).

Israel is perfectly fine with Christian tourists and pilgrims, but it is dedicated to ethnically cleansing its territory of non-Jews, including the native Christian Arab population.

Secular Arab dictators are far better for Christianity than Israel is. After all, the founder of Ba'athism, Michel Aflaq, was a Christian.

That's outright religious persecution. Israelis need to open up more, because I'm pretty sure God is NOT happy with them right now.

yes, if there are sources for this systematic persecution by the state of Israel.

[Salus Maior]

It's realistic if you're willing to commit genocide on the people who live there

just do what the soviets did to the germans in east Prussia, west Prussia, east pommern, Silesia, and the Sudetenland after WWII

You mean ship them off to labor camps in Siberia?

Yeah, no.

[The of Japan]

just do what the soviets did to the germans in east Prussia, west Prussia, east pommern, Silesia, and the Sudetenland after WWII

You mean ship them off to labor camps in Siberia?

Yeah, no.

that's not what they did, they forced them from their homes and to move west. 1 million died.