The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

[Geneviev]

I would not be surprised if they had the hypothetical ability to do that...

Anyways, so you think this hypothetical Christian woman would be denied access to heaven?

Hypothetically, I agree with Davincia. Martyrdom is the best option unless the hypothetical qualifiers you’ve added are present. In which case I still agree with Davincia.

Okay, thank you.

[Pasong Tirad]

I have a bit of a random question about a certain Bible verse. Please forgive me if this is not the right place for such a question, and if it seems a bit long.

Imagine a hypothetical Christian woman who is kidnapped by terrorists together with a group of other Christian women. These terrorists tell her and the rest of the group that unless they convert to the terrorist's religion, they will be stoned to death. This hypothetical Christian woman watches the first woman get stoned for refusing to convert. She converts to the terrorist's religion immediately. She continues to follow the religion outwardly and stops praying to the Christian God for her own safety, although she still secretly believes in Jesus as God. Matthew 10:33 says that "But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." (ESV). Does this mean that this hypothetical Christian woman is condemned to hell for denying Christianity? This sin would be considered blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, after all. If, hypothetically, she would be allowed into Europe as a refugee after being freed, and returned to a church, would that change the answer?

I'd recommend reading Shusaku Endo's Silence, or watching Martin Scorsese's film adaptation of it. It kind of depicts the hypothetical situation you're describing - a 16th century priest in Japan is given the choice: apostatize, or else let the Kirishitan community he has been protecting die gruesome deaths - no, he won't die, they will. It's all hypotheticals, of course (it could have happened, but I'm not entirely sure if it did), but it might help give you an answer - or it might only raise more questions. Not entirely sure. Art does that.

[Gim]

If I were to suggest that this hypothetical woman did not want to choose martyrdom due to pregnancy (and is purely hypothetical, of course), would that be more a sin or more of a noble act?

An interesting dilemma. If she somehow managed to raise the child as a secret Christian, I would say the effort makes her choice noble.
Now, I can't think of a reason why an (unrepentant) apostate should be allowed into Heaven, even under duress, but the judgement is ultimately in God's hands.

Yeah, you shouldn't really judge.

[Luminesa]

I have a bit of a random question about a certain Bible verse. Please forgive me if this is not the right place for such a question, and if it seems a bit long.

Imagine a hypothetical Christian woman who is kidnapped by terrorists together with a group of other Christian women. These terrorists tell her and the rest of the group that unless they convert to the terrorist's religion, they will be stoned to death. This hypothetical Christian woman watches the first woman get stoned for refusing to convert. She converts to the terrorist's religion immediately. She continues to follow the religion outwardly and stops praying to the Christian God for her own safety, although she still secretly believes in Jesus as God. Matthew 10:33 says that "But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." (ESV). Does this mean that this hypothetical Christian woman is condemned to hell for denying Christianity? This sin would be considered blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, after all. If, hypothetically, she would be allowed into Europe as a refugee after being freed, and returned to a church, would that change the answer?

The sin against the Holy Spirit, first of all, is attributing an act of God to demons or to the Devil. So she would not have committed the unforgivable sin. Second of all, this scenario would be rather complicated, but it does have a historical precedent.

In the days of the early Church, many Christians denied Christ due to the circumstances, and then sought to be forgiven later for their deed. This of course caused a fair bit of confusion. As a result of the deeds of some of these Christians, you had the Donatists, a heretical group, who claimed that anyone that refused martyrdom by Rome was a traitor who could not be forgiven. You then had orthodox Christians, who believed that these people could be forgiven, and that should they be priests and bishops, the sacraments they gave were not invalid. The latter group eventually won-out, and those who had lapsed as a result of Roman persecution were welcomed back into the Church.

St. Felicity, an early martyr of the Church and the servant of fellow martyr St. Perpetua, was a pregnant mother at the time of her martyrdom. Their heroism and their strength is admirable and beautiful. However, we should remember that Christ always seeks to outdo us in His forgiveness and in His mercy. If we look to St. Luke’s story of the Prodigal Son, we should remember that this is a story that is not some distant tale, but a tale of God’s unending love for us, who fail over and over to show Him love in return.

Thus, while denying Christ as a Christian is a grave error, she could still seek forgiveness and live in the life of God with her child. Jesus also forgave Peter, after all, and he was one of the worst betrayers of all. Even better, He made Peter the first pope, and granted him a second chance at martyrdom many years later. Remember that God is never outdone in His love and goodness. As long as we seek forgiveness for our sins, God awaits us to give us His grace and to lead us in the right direction in our lives.

[Salus Maior]

So, as a discussion starter I thought I'd state a rather controversial belief I hold. Although I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it here before.

My reasoning behind this belief is as thus: Partialism is the belief that the Trinity is simply one Person of the Trinity holds 1/3rd of the Divine, which is more or less dividing the substance of God, separating the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into separate categories, and is a false understanding of the Trinity.

Likewise, when people say things like Muslims or Jews worship the same God Christians do in a real, theological sense, they are saying that you can worship the True God while dividing the substance of God (whether that's the Father minus the Son and the Holy Spirit, or the Father and the Son minus the Holy Spirit, etc), which is wrong and based in a false understanding of God and the Trinity. You cannot worship the True God while rejecting the Son, God Incarnate, because the Son cannot be divided from the Father. Therefore, Jews and Muslims, rejecting God Incarnate, reject the True God in entirety.

[Tarsonis]

So, as a discussion starter I thought I'd state a rather controversial belief I hold. Although I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it here before.

(Image)

My reasoning behind this belief is as thus: Partialism is the belief that the Trinity is simply one Person of the Trinity holds 1/3rd of the Divine, which is more or less dividing the substance of God, separating the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into separate categories, and is a false understanding of the Trinity.

Likewise, when people say things like Muslims or Jews worship the same God Christians do in a real, theological sense, they are saying that you can worship the True God while dividing the substance of God (whether that's the Father minus the Son and the Holy Spirit, or the Father and the Son minus the Holy Spirit, etc), which is wrong and based in a false understanding of God and the Trinity. You cannot worship the True God while rejecting the Son, God Incarnate, because the Son cannot be divided from the Father. Therefore, Jews and Muslims, rejecting God Incarnate, reject the True God in entirety.

Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same God: the God of Abraham. To say they don’t because they’re mistaken on the qualities of God, is to say that God is not person, but rather a concept. To say they don’t is to say God doesn’t exist.

[Lower Nubia]

So, as a discussion starter I thought I'd state a rather controversial belief I hold. Although I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it here before.

(Image)

My reasoning behind this belief is as thus: Partialism is the belief that the Trinity is simply one Person of the Trinity holds 1/3rd of the Divine, which is more or less dividing the substance of God, separating the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into separate categories, and is a false understanding of the Trinity.

Likewise, when people say things like Muslims or Jews worship the same God Christians do in a real, theological sense, they are saying that you can worship the True God while dividing the substance of God (whether that's the Father minus the Son and the Holy Spirit, or the Father and the Son minus the Holy Spirit, etc), which is wrong and based in a false understanding of God and the Trinity. You cannot worship the True God while rejecting the Son, God Incarnate, because the Son cannot be divided from the Father. Therefore, Jews and Muslims, rejecting God Incarnate, reject the True God in entirety.

Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same God: the God of Abraham. To say they don’t because they’re mistaken on the qualities of God, is to say that God is not person, but rather a concept. To say they don’t is to say God doesn’t exist.

I mean, Judaism and Islam don't worship Christ, therefore, if Christ is the God of Abraham, they don't worship the God of Abraham.

[Diopolis]

In theory, she could continue to pray to God in private and ask for forgiveness even while captive. It would not have to be a verbal prayer. Martyrdom is still the best option here.

If I were to suggest that this hypothetical woman did not want to choose martyrdom due to pregnancy (and is purely hypothetical, of course), would that be more a sin or more of a noble act?

The example of the saints is instructive.
St Sophia was ordered to become a pagan- in reality, offer a little pinch of incense to an idol, get a certificate, that's it, just pray to a heathen God once- or her three daughters would be killed. She refused. They offered her the choice again after each one was executed, and she refused each time.
Today, we honor her and her daughters as martyrs and saints.
Let's say this woman refuses martyrdom. What then? Well, the church has spoken, and apostasy by itself is not blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. She can be forgiven.

[Diopolis]

So, as a discussion starter I thought I'd state a rather controversial belief I hold. Although I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it here before.

(Image)

My reasoning behind this belief is as thus: Partialism is the belief that the Trinity is simply one Person of the Trinity holds 1/3rd of the Divine, which is more or less dividing the substance of God, separating the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into separate categories, and is a false understanding of the Trinity.

Likewise, when people say things like Muslims or Jews worship the same God Christians do in a real, theological sense, they are saying that you can worship the True God while dividing the substance of God (whether that's the Father minus the Son and the Holy Spirit, or the Father and the Son minus the Holy Spirit, etc), which is wrong and based in a false understanding of God and the Trinity. You cannot worship the True God while rejecting the Son, God Incarnate, because the Son cannot be divided from the Father. Therefore, Jews and Muslims, rejecting God Incarnate, reject the True God in entirety.

Fr Hesse has the right of it here- "it is heresy and it is blasphemy" he says of statements that we worship the same God as the Mohammedans.
I don't believe he specifically addressed the God of the Jews, but my personal opinion is that modern Jewry does not worship the same God as OT Judaism and therefore not the same as us. After all, do we not on good Friday pray for the faithless Jews?

[Tarsonis]

So, as a discussion starter I thought I'd state a rather controversial belief I hold. Although I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it here before.

(Image)

My reasoning behind this belief is as thus: Partialism is the belief that the Trinity is simply one Person of the Trinity holds 1/3rd of the Divine, which is more or less dividing the substance of God, separating the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into separate categories, and is a false understanding of the Trinity.

Likewise, when people say things like Muslims or Jews worship the same God Christians do in a real, theological sense, they are saying that you can worship the True God while dividing the substance of God (whether that's the Father minus the Son and the Holy Spirit, or the Father and the Son minus the Holy Spirit, etc), which is wrong and based in a false understanding of God and the Trinity. You cannot worship the True God while rejecting the Son, God Incarnate, because the Son cannot be divided from the Father. Therefore, Jews and Muslims, rejecting God Incarnate, reject the True God in entirety.

Fr Hesse has the right of it here- "it is heresy and it is blasphemy" he says of statements that we worship the same God as the Mohammedans.
I don't believe he specifically addressed the God of the Jews, but my personal opinion is that modern Jewry does not worship the same God as OT Judaism and therefore not the same as us. After all, do we not on good Friday pray for the faithless Jews?

Hesse is a rad trad fool.

[Diopolis]

Fr Hesse has the right of it here- "it is heresy and it is blasphemy" he says of statements that we worship the same God as the Mohammedans.
I don't believe he specifically addressed the God of the Jews, but my personal opinion is that modern Jewry does not worship the same God as OT Judaism and therefore not the same as us. After all, do we not on good Friday pray for the faithless Jews?

Hesse is a rad trad fool.

Hesse was a wise and holy priest. He is also very quotable.

[Geneviev]

If I were to suggest that this hypothetical woman did not want to choose martyrdom due to pregnancy (and is purely hypothetical, of course), would that be more a sin or more of a noble act?

The example of the saints is instructive.
St Sophia was ordered to become a pagan- in reality, offer a little pinch of incense to an idol, get a certificate, that's it, just pray to a heathen God once- or her three daughters would be killed. She refused. They offered her the choice again after each one was executed, and she refused each time.
Today, we honor her and her daughters as martyrs and saints.
Let's say this woman refuses martyrdom. What then? Well, the church has spoken, and apostasy by itself is not blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. She can be forgiven.

I am familiar with St. Sophia's story. I do not understand why she is celebrated when she essentially murdered her daughters, though. Another thing about Christianity that seems odd.

She can be forgiven? That is something. Would she be accepted fully into the church again?

[Tarsonis]

Hesse is a rad trad fool.

Hesse was a wise and holy priest. He is also very quotable.

Quotable yes, Wise? Hardly.

[Diopolis]

The example of the saints is instructive.
St Sophia was ordered to become a pagan- in reality, offer a little pinch of incense to an idol, get a certificate, that's it, just pray to a heathen God once- or her three daughters would be killed. She refused. They offered her the choice again after each one was executed, and she refused each time.
Today, we honor her and her daughters as martyrs and saints.
Let's say this woman refuses martyrdom. What then? Well, the church has spoken, and apostasy by itself is not blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. She can be forgiven.

I am familiar with St. Sophia's story. I do not understand why she is celebrated when she essentially murdered her daughters, though. Another thing about Christianity that seems odd.

She can be forgiven? That is something. Would she be accepted fully into the church again

The church has ruled that apostates can be received back into the church, and that a difference is to be recognized between those who converted to another religion, those who faked their conversion(in this example, lie about having made her shahada) those who were genuine, devout believers.

[Geneviev]

I am familiar with St. Sophia's story. I do not understand why she is celebrated when she essentially murdered her daughters, though. Another thing about Christianity that seems odd.

She can be forgiven? That is something. Would she be accepted fully into the church again

The church has ruled that apostates can be received back into the church, and that a difference is to be recognized between those who converted to another religion, those who faked their conversion(in this example, lie about having made her shahada) those who were genuine, devout believers.

Sure, that sounds friendly. In practise, though, would she be welcome?

Also, this is entirely unrelated, so you don't have to answer, but why does your sig say thank you St. Jude?

[Diopolis]

The church has ruled that apostates can be received back into the church, and that a difference is to be recognized between those who converted to another religion, those who faked their conversion(in this example, lie about having made her shahada) those who were genuine, devout believers.

Sure, that sounds friendly. In practise, though, would she be welcome?

That entirely depends on the local authority involved.
Most religious Christians are quite happy to have people back most of the time. Reverts are pretty common in the church today.

Also, this is entirely unrelated, so you don't have to answer, but why does your sig say thank you St. Jude?

It is customary to thank St. Jude in public-usually in the vaguest way possible- for favors resulting from his intercession. I count anything I put on the Internet as being in public.

[Luminesa]

The example of the saints is instructive.
St Sophia was ordered to become a pagan- in reality, offer a little pinch of incense to an idol, get a certificate, that's it, just pray to a heathen God once- or her three daughters would be killed. She refused. They offered her the choice again after each one was executed, and she refused each time.
Today, we honor her and her daughters as martyrs and saints.
Let's say this woman refuses martyrdom. What then? Well, the church has spoken, and apostasy by itself is not blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. She can be forgiven.

I am familiar with St. Sophia's story. I do not understand why she is celebrated when she essentially murdered her daughters, though. Another thing about Christianity that seems odd.

She can be forgiven? That is something. Would she be accepted fully into the church again?

She didn’t murder her kids. She chose to stand by her faith, and they forced her to make a cruel decision.

[Salus Maior]

Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same God: the God of Abraham. To say they don’t because they’re mistaken on the qualities of God, is to say that God is not person, but rather a concept. To say they don’t is to say God doesn’t exist.

Academically and categorically speaking, yes, all religions are Abrahamic and in the same sort of ideas/culture group. This I don't deny.

And no, I am not rejecting God as a "person". Quite the opposite actually, I'm saying that rejecting the incarnation of God is the rejection of God in entirety, which is something that Christ also alludes to in the Gospels. Unless you're saying that you can reject the True God and also worship the True God at the same time and not divide the substance of God?

[Geneviev]

I am familiar with St. Sophia's story. I do not understand why she is celebrated when she essentially murdered her daughters, though. Another thing about Christianity that seems odd.

She can be forgiven? That is something. Would she be accepted fully into the church again?

She didn’t murder her kids. She chose to stand by her faith, and they forced her to make a cruel decision.

She caused their deaths. What about Abraham, who was ready to kill his son? Or Jephtah's daughter?

Sure, that sounds friendly. In practise, though, would she be welcome?

That entirely depends on the local authority involved.
Most religious Christians are quite happy to have people back most of the time. Reverts are pretty common in the church today.

Also, this is entirely unrelated, so you don't have to answer, but why does your sig say thank you St. Jude?

It is customary to thank St. Jude in public-usually in the vaguest way possible- for favors resulting from his intercession. I count anything I put on the Internet as being in public.

Oh, I'm sure it depends. Fair.

Right... It's been a while. Sorry.

[Salus Maior]

She didn’t murder her kids. She chose to stand by her faith, and they forced her to make a cruel decision.

She caused their deaths. What about Abraham, who was ready to kill his son? Or Jephtah's daughter?

That entirely depends on the local authority involved.
Most religious Christians are quite happy to have people back most of the time. Reverts are pretty common in the church today.

It is customary to thank St. Jude in public-usually in the vaguest way possible- for favors resulting from his intercession. I count anything I put on the Internet as being in public.

Oh, I'm sure it depends. Fair.

Right... It's been a while. Sorry.

You know, it's never actually said that Jephtah's daughter was sacrificed.

[Geneviev]

She caused their deaths. What about Abraham, who was ready to kill his son? Or Jephtah's daughter?


Oh, I'm sure it depends. Fair.

Right... It's been a while. Sorry.

You know, it's never actually said that Jephtah's daughter was sacrificed.

What, then, is Judges 11:39 (I think that was the verse, anyways...)?

[Salus Maior]

You know, it's never actually said that Jephtah's daughter was sacrificed.

What, then, is Judges 11:39 (I think that was the verse, anyways...)?

There's actually a theory that her sacrifice was becoming a perpetual virgin, hence the notation "she knew no man".

[Geneviev]

What, then, is Judges 11:39 (I think that was the verse, anyways...)?

There's actually a theory that her sacrifice was becoming a perpetual virgin, hence the notation "she knew no man".

Jephthah said he would sacrifice the first thing he saw as a burnt offering. It then says he did as promised. How does that add up? Unless you think that the Bible is either flawed or encouraging these things.

[Tarsonis]

There's actually a theory that her sacrifice was becoming a perpetual virgin, hence the notation "she knew no man".

Jephthah said he would sacrifice the first thing he saw as a burnt offering. It then says he did as promised. How does that add up? Unless you think that the Bible is either flawed or encouraging these things.

It’s not implied that it was a good thing. In fact the opposite.

[Geneviev]

Jephthah said he would sacrifice the first thing he saw as a burnt offering. It then says he did as promised. How does that add up? Unless you think that the Bible is either flawed or encouraging these things.

It’s not implied that it was a good thing. In fact the opposite.

Oh? It's in the Bible. I thought that was a guide for how to live.