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The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
273
34%
Eastern Orthodox
67
8%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
6
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
53
7%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
95
12%
Methodist
29
4%
Baptist
89
11%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
52
7%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
18
2%
Other Christian
113
14%
 
Total votes : 795

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:37 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Bari wrote:I use Douai-Rheims, Challoner revision, almost exclusively. But I guess you weren't speaking on my behalf.

Apologies. By "same as everybody else here," I meant my country, where if you're not using the Filipino translations, NABRE is the go-to translation for Catholics.

The "default translation" used in lectionaries is typically a fairly liberal translation. NAB is infamous for prioritizing political correctness over accuracy, and for changing every year to be more politically correct.
In the US, liberals use NAB, conservatives use NSRV, and traditionalists use DRC. The latter two are highly accurate translations with stylistic differences. The first is... not.
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:42 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I realize. I'm speaking more of a theoretical form of government.

It's not feasible. Orthodox reactionaries favor absolute monarchies, not theocracies. And Catholic reactionaries (if they still exist) favor absolute political power of the Pope, with monarchs answering to him.

You called?
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Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for president Trump!

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Pasong Tirad
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:44 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Apologies. By "same as everybody else here," I meant my country, where if you're not using the Filipino translations, NABRE is the go-to translation for Catholics.

The "default translation" used in lectionaries is typically a fairly liberal translation. NAB is infamous for prioritizing political correctness over accuracy, and for changing every year to be more politically correct.
In the US, liberals use NAB, conservatives use NSRV, and traditionalists use DRC. The latter two are highly accurate translations with stylistic differences. The first is... not.

Well I don't know how you guys do it over there but when English liturgies are held, almost every church I've gone to has used the NABRE. There isn't any distinction between liberal and conservative liturgies here.

Unless you're trying to tell me to go to traditionalist liturgies instead - which I'm all for trying, it's just not that easy to find any here.
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nordengrund
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Postby Nordengrund » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:44 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:I'm somewhere in the middle between secularism and promoting Christian values in government. In some ways, I think secularism is compatible with Christian values as I believe everyone should practice whatever they want as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others. While I am okay with a government promoting Christian values in areas like social justice, abortion, etc, I don't think any particular denomination should have special treatment.

I'm a low-churcher, so maybe I tend to be a little more skeptical of state churches and monarchism due to that.


There were plenty of Protestant monarchs. In fact, I think most of the ones that still exist are mostly Protestants. (Nordic countries, Britain, Netherlands,etc.)

In fact, the only Catholic monarchy I can think of that still exists is Spain. And there's no Orthodox monarchies anymore.

Edit: Nevermind, Belgium is also a Catholic monarchy.


There's also Spain, Monaco, Luxembourg, Andorra, and Liechtenstein, though all of them except Spain are principalities or duchies. My point isn't that monarchism is incompatible with Protestantism, just that they seem to be inseparable with state churches and high churches.
1 John 1:9

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:46 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Nordengrund wrote:I'm somewhere in the middle between secularism and promoting Christian values in government. In some ways, I think secularism is compatible with Christian values as I believe everyone should practice whatever they want as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others. While I am okay with a government promoting Christian values in areas like social justice, abortion, etc, I don't think any particular denomination should have special treatment.

I'm a low-churcher, so maybe I tend to be a little more skeptical of state churches and monarchism due to that.


There were plenty of Protestant monarchs. In fact, I think most of the ones that still exist are mostly Protestants. (Nordic countries, Britain, Netherlands,etc.)

In fact, the only Catholic monarchy I can think of that still exists is Spain. And there's no Orthodox monarchies anymore.

Don't remind me.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:04 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Diopolis wrote:The "default translation" used in lectionaries is typically a fairly liberal translation. NAB is infamous for prioritizing political correctness over accuracy, and for changing every year to be more politically correct.
In the US, liberals use NAB, conservatives use NSRV, and traditionalists use DRC. The latter two are highly accurate translations with stylistic differences. The first is... not.

Well I don't know how you guys do it over there but when English liturgies are held, almost every church I've gone to has used the NABRE. There isn't any distinction between liberal and conservative liturgies here.

Unless you're trying to tell me to go to traditionalist liturgies instead - which I'm all for trying, it's just not that easy to find any here.

The missal uses NAB, because apparently having to order a new missal every 3.2 seconds because they changed the translation of the readings again is necessary and desirable. For individual use, liberals and nominals use NAB, conservatives by and large use NSRV, and traditionalists use DRC. Of course, traditional liturgies typically have the readings in Latin, and then repeated from DRC during or just before the homily. Even conservative novus ordo liturgies here typically use NAB, because that's what's in the book
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Abortion is not healthcare.
St Generalissimo Francisco Franco, pray for president Trump!

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:10 pm

Not Catholic of course, but I use the Orthodox Study Bible; it's a slightly modified version of the NKJV that also includes lots of footnotes and translators' notes made by the bishops who edited it.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:18 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:Not Catholic of course, but I use the Orthodox Study Bible; it's a slightly modified version of the NKJV that also includes lots of footnotes and translators' notes made by the bishops who edited it.

Didn't the Orthodox use Douay-Rheims for a while?
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Tarsonis Survivors
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Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:37 pm

I like the NRSVCE. Then again I also read the original Greek so *shrug*
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:40 pm

Diopolis wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Not Catholic of course, but I use the Orthodox Study Bible; it's a slightly modified version of the NKJV that also includes lots of footnotes and translators' notes made by the bishops who edited it.

Didn't the Orthodox use Douay-Rheims for a while?

I don't really know, honestly. It wouldn't surprise me.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:18 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
There were plenty of Protestant monarchs. In fact, I think most of the ones that still exist are mostly Protestants. (Nordic countries, Britain, Netherlands,etc.)

In fact, the only Catholic monarchy I can think of that still exists is Spain. And there's no Orthodox monarchies anymore.

Don't remind me.


You can always hope that Georgia or Serbia actually acts on the large movements to restore their monarchies.
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"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

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Pasong Tirad
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:26 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Don't remind me.


You can always hope that Georgia or Serbia actually acts on the large movements to restore their monarchies.

And the former Romanian monarch is still very popular.

But I honestly don't understand why the Orthodox love their monarchies.
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:27 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
You can always hope that Georgia or Serbia actually acts on the large movements to restore their monarchies.

And the former Romanian monarch is still very popular.


Really? I've heard he wasn't very good.

From a Romanian, even :P
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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Pasong Tirad
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:31 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:And the former Romanian monarch is still very popular.


Really? I've heard he wasn't very good.

From a Romanian, even :P

Saw some old articles. The guy's popular, the thought of a monarchy is so-so.

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Minzerland II
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Postby Minzerland II » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:13 am

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Minzerland II wrote:Exactly, not everyone is willing to inconvenience themselves, their families, their friends, their countries their countrymen, etc.; they choose to prioritise them, as do I, not some foreigner in need of help somewhere far away, who may not even help them if they were ever in need. Not everyone is Christian in America or Australia, either. This all ignoring the fact that I cannot see any feasible way in which to help everyone, as you suggest we do. I think your proposition is rather shortsighted and unrealistic, instead of alleviating the problem you'll exacerbate it so much so that it becomes untenable, as has been said previously by another poster, leading to even more suffering.

It's not about you. It's not about whether or not they will return the kindness. That doesn't matter. They need help now. You, have the capacity to help but choose not to. Firefighters don't ask people in a burning building if they're Muslim, if they voted Liberal or if their house is insured. They just go in.

I never said it was solely about me or their own self-interest, I said it was about 'themselves, their families, their friends, their countries, their countrymen, etc.'
Last edited by Minzerland II on Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cote Acreole
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Postby Cote Acreole » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:28 am

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Nordengrund
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Postby Nordengrund » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:29 am

I use the NASB and the NIV translations.
1 John 1:9

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:55 am

Diopolis wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:It's not feasible. Orthodox reactionaries favor absolute monarchies, not theocracies. And Catholic reactionaries (if they still exist) favor absolute political power of the Pope, with monarchs answering to him.

You called?


Are you a monarchist, Dio?
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:59 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Diopolis wrote:You called?


Are you a monarchist, Dio?

Why yes, good sir. *exhales pipesmoke* Long live the king!
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:04 am

Diopolis wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Are you a monarchist, Dio?

Why yes, good sir. *exhales pipesmoke* Long live the king!


Jolly good :P
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"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:07 am

Diopolis wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Are you a monarchist, Dio?

Why yes, good sir. *exhales pipesmoke* Long live the king!


Which one, the Spanish or the Belgian? All other kings are not Catholic iirc.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:08 am

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
You can always hope that Georgia or Serbia actually acts on the large movements to restore their monarchies.

And the former Romanian monarch is still very popular.

But I honestly don't understand why the Orthodox love their monarchies.

Here's a good article on it, by an American layperson, published on the site of a Russian seminary.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:10 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:And the former Romanian monarch is still very popular.


Really? I've heard he wasn't very good.

From a Romanian, even :P

King Micheal is seen as a symbol of the nation by many. Const doesn't like King Micheal because said King tried to block a Communist majority in parliament.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism. 22-year old Doomer
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:17 am

Pasong Tirad wrote:I'd rather not impose my beliefs on people who aren't even Christian to begin with, though.


I don't either. And nobody can do that really. You can't force people to believe in anything.

My idea is for Christian morality to be established as the moral backbone of the nation, not to enforce Christianity as the sole religion/belief.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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Tarsonis Survivors
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Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:08 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Why yes, good sir. *exhales pipesmoke* Long live the king!


Jolly good :P


I personally see the value of monarchy, however I find the risks don't outweigh the reward so to speak. An absolute monarchy requires the existence of absolute virtue, to protect the rights of the common man. Because such a person does not, and arguably cannot, exist apart from divine grace, absolute power should never be vested in a single individual.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
A. Lincoln: "My concern is not whether God is on our side, My greatest concern is to be on God's side."
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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