The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

[Northern Davincia]

To Deus vult, or not to Deus vult? That is the question.

Silly ND, the answer is always Deus vult!

Now you're speaking my lingua.

[The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom]

[Tarsonis]

I’ve been told not to speak ill of the dead

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I’ve been told not to speak ill of the dead

I’m getting the impression that you really, really want to.

[Tarsonis]

I’ve been told not to speak ill of the dead

I’m getting the impression that you really, really want to.

Just pondering if Heretic preachers still get relegated to the 6th circle of hell

[Nioya]

The salt against Billy Graham on Reddit is something else.

Where? I didn’t see any.

[Cedoria]

I’ve been told not to speak ill of the dead

Go ahead, they can't hear you.

I certainly will be, when I return home from work to write Graham's obituary, and give the two-bit fraudster the send-off he so richly deserves.

[The Parkus Empire]

The salt against Billy Graham on Reddit is something else.

He was a good man and a fine Christian. I am sure Reddit hates that

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I’ve been told not to speak ill of the dead

Go ahead, they can't hear you.

I certainly will be, when I return home from work to write Graham's obituary, and give the two-bit fraudster the send-off he so richly deserves.

Could you be specific? Today is the first I’ve heard of the guy, and I have a feeling you’ll be able to summarise it well.

[Stonok]

I’m getting the impression that you really, really want to.

Just pondering if Heretic preachers still get relegated to the 6th circle of hell

Surely Catholics have a way to salvation for someone who, even if they may have been in error, pursued Christ with a sincere heart?

[Tarsonis]

Just pondering if Heretic preachers still get relegated to the 6th circle of hell

Surely Catholics have a way to salvation for someone who, even if they may have been in error, pursued Christ with a sincere heart?

Sure, after V2, but one does still wonder... Rememebr, simply being a heretic isn’t even really a. Sin. There’s no shame in simply being misinformed. It’s those who promulgate heresy, that stand condemned for wounding the flock.

[Northern Davincia]

Just pondering if Heretic preachers still get relegated to the 6th circle of hell

Surely Catholics have a way to salvation for someone who, even if they may have been in error, pursued Christ with a sincere heart?

I think it would depend on how grave the error is.

[Benuty]

I’m getting the impression that you really, really want to.

Just pondering if Heretic preachers still get relegated to the 6th circle of hell

Heresy from the Catholic perspective, and doctrine or just heresy in Christianity in general?

[Benuty]

Go ahead, they can't hear you.

I certainly will be, when I return home from work to write Graham's obituary, and give the two-bit fraudster the send-off he so richly deserves.

Could you be specific? Today is the first I’ve heard of the guy, and I have a feeling you’ll be able to summarise it well.

I am somewhat surprised considering the man advised presidents from Harry Truman to Obama on many matters, and some admittedly were not entirely religious, and/or somewhat "off-color" today like his anti-semitic conversations with Nixon. Of course, he did apologize for those after the tapes were leaked some decades later.

[Benuty]

The salt against Billy Graham on Reddit is something else.

He was a good man and a fine Christian. I am sure Reddit hates that

Depends on the part of Reddit you are in, to be honest. Suffice it to say there are a lot of subreddits that do not bow to peer pressure and conform to the mob pressuring them by force to drink cyanide flavor aid unless they want to be shot.

[Hakons]

I’ve been told not to speak ill of the dead

Go ahead, they can't hear you.

I certainly will be, when I return home from work to write Graham's obituary, and give the two-bit fraudster the send-off he so richly deserves.

What a simple human hears about your slander is the least of your concerns.

As Parkus said, the people that announced their hate for Graham hate him because he was Christian. It is understandable for other Christians to have sincere disagreements with Graham, but the present cowards that spit at his grave decry him because he had the audacity to advocate for the belief in Christ.

[Luminesa]

I’ve been told not to speak ill of the dead

Go ahead, they can't hear you.

I certainly will be, when I return home from work to write Graham's obituary, and give the two-bit fraudster the send-off he so richly deserves.

Did you have a bad personal experience with him?

[Cedoria]

Go ahead, they can't hear you.

I certainly will be, when I return home from work to write Graham's obituary, and give the two-bit fraudster the send-off he so richly deserves.

Could you be specific? Today is the first I’ve heard of the guy, and I have a feeling you’ll be able to summarise it well.

Sure, strap yourselves in though, this is going to be a long one.

My reasons for disliking Graham go beyond his preaching and his faith. Anybody who has heard me on this subject before knows I don't like evangelists at the best of times, but Graham and those like him go beyond that mere dislike.

1: Graham, in his capacity as an advisor to Richard Nixon, wrote his boss a note in 1969, after one of his 'missions' to Bangkok, where he urged Nixon to conduct a policy of bombing Vietnamese dykes, which he stated would 'destroy the economy of North Vietnam'. By Nixon's own Cabinet estimates, such a policy would kill a million Vietnamese.

Strike One: Aspirational War Criminal.

2: Graham's comments to Nixon on Jews. Far more than just one or two off-hand comments, but multiple comments made, and, it's worth pointing out, Graham also did not object to the foul-mouthed bigotry and anti-semitism coming out of Nixon's mouth. He sat there and agreed to it. I know he later claimed he didn't remember, but this is a man who made multiple comments about it, and did not object to the anti-Semitic bigotry displayed by Nixon. Anti-Jewish prejudice is, in my mind, the sign of a sick and disturbed mind. Keep in mind also that Graham was not a senile retiree, but a charismatic preacher at the height of his powers when he made the comments.

Strike 2: Anti-Semite bigot, and apparently had no problem supporting and defending anti-Semite bigots either.
Link: A good Counterpunch Article which covers both these aspects. https://www.counterpunch.org/2013/11/01 ... on-people/

3: Simulatenously while pumping anti-Semitic innuendo's into the ears of American Presidents, he was fawning over the worst elements of th State of Israel, urging no peace, no negotiations, and constantly urging the government theft of more land and building of more settlements. Every democrat and secularist peace effort in the region undercut by Graham and his friends. How many more have died in that pointless dispute as a consequence of this?

Strike 3: Hypocrite and Liar who undercuts and ruins diplomatic efforts in a hot conflict zone.

That's a very short summary, and doesn't cover all my reasons, but they're some main ones. I get sick of people eulogising him as if he's a damn saint. He wasn't, he had a number of very nasty traits. Also listen to him on the Nixon tapes, what he says about African-Americans is repulsive.

Virtually none of this is covered in our useless Western press in the mainstream, so I thought it important to point out.

Go ahead, they can't hear you.

I certainly will be, when I return home from work to write Graham's obituary, and give the two-bit fraudster the send-off he so richly deserves.

What a simple human hears about your slander is the least of your concerns.

As Parkus said, the people that announced their hate for Graham hate him because he was Christian. It is understandable for other Christians to have sincere disagreements with Graham, but the present cowards that spit at his grave decry him because he had the audacity to advocate for the belief in Christ.

I do not hate him because he was a Christian. Nor do I have any particular dislike of Christians in general. I have amicable relations with a number of Christians on this site, many of them in this thread, such as Luminesa and Felrik. Most of my friendship circle is various kinds of Christian. As I said, my dislike of Graham is rather more specific, and intensive, then my general discomfort with faith, for some of the reasons why, see above.

Go ahead, they can't hear you.

I certainly will be, when I return home from work to write Graham's obituary, and give the two-bit fraudster the send-off he so richly deserves.

Did you have a bad personal experience with him?

Do I need to have? I didn't have a bad personal experience with Adolf Hitler either, I still hate the guy. It doesn't have to be personal to be legitimate dislike.

No, I just disliked what he said and did.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Thank you for the summary, Cedoria.

[Luminesa]

That is definitely a lot of reasons to show nervousness toward, at the very least. Though being an anti-Semite and a supporter of Israel seems counterintuitive to me. Ah well.

I did not mean any offense when I asked if you had a bad experience with him, Cedoria. I was just asking since personal experiences sometimes make our feelings toward people more visceral. It’s not a bad thing, just something that happens.

I personally have little to no experience with Billy Graham or his writings. He certainly did not like Catholics, but God is His judge now.

[Cedoria]

Thank you for the summary, Cedoria.

You're welcome Felrik:) Any more details you'd like, feel free to ask. I understand many like Graham so my critique of him is one I'm happy to defend as needed.

[United Muscovite Nations]

That is definitely a lot of reasons to show nervousness toward, at the very least. Though being an anti-Semite and a supporter of Israel seems counterintuitive to me. Ah well.

I did not mean any offense when I asked if you had a bad experience with him, Cedoria. I was just asking since personal experiences sometimes make our feelings toward people more visceral. It’s not a bad thing, just something that happens.

I personally have little to no experience with Billy Graham or his writings. He certainly did not like Catholics, but God is His judge now.

A lot of Evangelicals support Israel just because they think it will fulfill the prophecies in the Book of Revelations.

[Cedoria]

That is definitely a lot of reasons to show nervousness toward, at the very least. Though being an anti-Semite and a supporter of Israel seems counterintuitive to me. Ah well.

I did not mean any offense when I asked if you had a bad experience with him, Cedoria. I was just asking since personal experiences sometimes make our feelings toward people more visceral. It’s not a bad thing, just something that happens.

I personally have little to no experience with Billy Graham or his writings. He certainly did not like Catholics, but God is His judge now.

I know you meant no personal offence, you're one who has always engaged fairly with me and I respect you enormously. I wasn't implying I was offended at all.

As for his backing for Israel, the link I provided covers that. Graham himself says something like 'The Jews swan around me because I'm pro-Israel but they'll never know how I really feel about them, what they're doing to this country'. I'm paraphrasing slightly but that's the gist of it, and if you find an online recording of the Nixon Tapes you can listen for yourself. Don't just take my word for it.

[The Parkus Empire]

Could you be specific? Today is the first I’ve heard of the guy, and I have a feeling you’ll be able to summarise it well.

Sure, strap yourselves in though, this is going to be a long one.

My reasons for disliking Graham go beyond his preaching and his faith. Anybody who has heard me on this subject before knows I don't like evangelists at the best of times, but Graham and those like him go beyond that mere dislike.

1: Graham, in his capacity as an advisor to Richard Nixon, wrote his boss a note in 1969, after one of his 'missions' to Bangkok, where he urged Nixon to conduct a policy of bombing Vietnamese dykes, which he stated would 'destroy the economy of North Vietnam'. By Nixon's own Cabinet estimates, such a policy would kill a million Vietnamese.

Strike One: Aspirational War Criminal.

2: Graham's comments to Nixon on Jews. Far more than just one or two off-hand comments, but multiple comments made, and, it's worth pointing out, Graham also did not object to the foul-mouthed bigotry and anti-semitism coming out of Nixon's mouth. He sat there and agreed to it. I know he later claimed he didn't remember, but this is a man who made multiple comments about it, and did not object to the anti-Semitic bigotry displayed by Nixon. Anti-Jewish prejudice is, in my mind, the sign of a sick and disturbed mind. Keep in mind also that Graham was not a senile retiree, but a charismatic preacher at the height of his powers when he made the comments.

Strike 2: Anti-Semite bigot, and apparently had no problem supporting and defending anti-Semite bigots either.
Link: A good Counterpunch Article which covers both these aspects. https://www.counterpunch.org/2013/11/01 ... on-people/

3: Simulatenously while pumping anti-Semitic innuendo's into the ears of American Presidents, he was fawning over the worst elements of th State of Israel, urging no peace, no negotiations, and constantly urging the government theft of more land and building of more settlements. Every democrat and secularist peace effort in the region undercut by Graham and his friends. How many more have died in that pointless dispute as a consequence of this?

Strike 3: Hypocrite and Liar who undercuts and ruins diplomatic efforts in a hot conflict zone.

That's a very short summary, and doesn't cover all my reasons, but they're some main ones. I get sick of people eulogising him as if he's a damn saint. He wasn't, he had a number of very nasty traits. Also listen to him on the Nixon tapes, what he says about African-Americans is repulsive.

Virtually none of this is covered in our useless Western press in the mainstream, so I thought it important to point out.

What a simple human hears about your slander is the least of your concerns.

As Parkus said, the people that announced their hate for Graham hate him because he was Christian. It is understandable for other Christians to have sincere disagreements with Graham, but the present cowards that spit at his grave decry him because he had the audacity to advocate for the belief in Christ.

I do not hate him because he was a Christian. Nor do I have any particular dislike of Christians in general. I have amicable relations with a number of Christians on this site, many of them in this thread, such as Luminesa and Felrik. Most of my friendship circle is various kinds of Christian. As I said, my dislike of Graham is rather more specific, and intensive, then my general discomfort with faith, for some of the reasons why, see above.

Did you have a bad personal experience with him?

Do I need to have? I didn't have a bad personal experience with Adolf Hitler either, I still hate the guy. It doesn't have to be personal to be legitimate dislike.

No, I just disliked what he said and did.

Graham said he deeply regretted being involved in politics. I forgive him on that count

Yes, he was an antisemite. Yes, it was a failing. But there have been very antisemetic saints.

[Benuty]

That is definitely a lot of reasons to show nervousness toward, at the very least. Though being an anti-Semite and a supporter of Israel seems counterintuitive to me. Ah well.

I did not mean any offense when I asked if you had a bad experience with him, Cedoria. I was just asking since personal experiences sometimes make our feelings toward people more visceral. It’s not a bad thing, just something that happens.

I personally have little to no experience with Billy Graham or his writings. He certainly did not like Catholics, but God is His judge now.

A lot of Evangelicals support Israel just because they think it will fulfill the prophecies in the Book of Revelations.

Which is ironic as trying to cause the apocalypse on your own never works. Just ask the twelver Shiites of Iran during their peak.