The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

[Athartha]

I realize that, but it often feels like the word is used in a more offensive way than it is intended to mean.

The word heresy has negative connotations to it. When we hear it, we often have images conjured up of witches burned as heretics, for example. Also, because of it's meaning of a false teaching that can place one's own salvation at risk, it is easy to become defensive, being told xyz is heresy when you personally believe in xyz is, by its very nature, to be told "you are (dangerously) wrong." And no one likes to be told that they are wrong. That being said, in modern apologetics a lot of people try to dance around the H word for the very reason it can be off putting, it can lead to individuals to be less likely to listen to your argument; but it is still important to recognise (at least from a Catholic perspective) when things are heresy.

[United Islamic Commonwealth]

If a Christian is declared a heretic, are they still considered a Christian? Or would it be comparable to invoking takfir where that person is considered an unbeliever?

[Hatterleigh]

If a Christian is declared a heretic, are they still considered a Christian? Or would it be comparable to invoking takfir where that person is considered an unbeliever?

It really depends on your definition of christian, and what the heretic believes

[Stonok]

If a Christian is declared a heretic, are they still considered a Christian? Or would it be comparable to invoking takfir where that person is considered an unbeliever?

The Catholics here have said being Christian is a requirement for being a Heretic. If you're not a Christian, you can't hold heretical Christian beliefs.

[United Islamic Commonwealth]

If a Christian is declared a heretic, are they still considered a Christian? Or would it be comparable to invoking takfir where that person is considered an unbeliever?

It really depends on your definition of christian, and what the heretic believes

Does the Nicene Creed not clearly define a Christian?

[Hakons]

[
I realize that, but it often feels like the word is used in a more offensive way than it is intended to mean.

I was offended by it before, but it's been used enough that I've grown used to it. I'm not crass enough to use it in conversation, but I have no qualms with its application over an internet exchange. If someone calls you a heretic, they don't hate you, they just think your theology is severely wrong. For example, I'm a dirty Protestant that doesn't believe in Purgatory, which some might find heretical. They wouldn't hate me, they just think Puragtory is a necessary component to acceptable theology.

[Hatterleigh]

If a Christian is declared a heretic, are they still considered a Christian? Or would it be comparable to invoking takfir where that person is considered an unbeliever?

The Catholics here have said being Christian is a requirement for being a Heretic. If you're not a Christian, you can't hold heretical Christian beliefs.

Yeah, I guess so. Like, technically if someone's heretical beliefs are not close enough to christianity then they are not a heretic but an infadel or a heathen

[Cill Airne]

If a Christian is declared a heretic, are they still considered a Christian? Or would it be comparable to invoking takfir where that person is considered an unbeliever?

It's not quite comparable to takfir. One can hold beliefs that are heretical while still being called a Christian, in fact since it is likely they hold a belief described as a Christian heresy they would have to be Christian to hold said belief (it'd be a bit like an Atheist believing Christ died for our sins otherwise). That being said, some heresies are so large they are only vaguely related to Christianity which can lead to one questioning whether or not they are Christian anymore. I suppose it is also worth mentioning that at certain points in history both Jews and Muslims have been branded heretics by Christians, so it also depends on your definition of heresy I suppose.

[Constantinopolis]

If a Christian is declared a heretic, are they still considered a Christian? Or would it be comparable to invoking takfir where that person is considered an unbeliever?

A heretic is still a Christian. The technical term for leaving Christianity altogether is apostasy, rather than heresy. Calling someone an apostate is equivalent to invoking takfir.

But the line between heresy and apostasy can sometimes be blurry, in the case of really extreme heretics. Take, for example, "Bishop" John Shelby Spong. Heretic, or apostate? Hard to tell. He may or may not believe that God exists, depending on how we define "God" and "existence".

[Hakons]

It really depends on your definition of christian, and what the heretic believes

Does the Nicene Creed not clearly define a Christian?

The Nicene Creed defines Nicene Christianity. Arians are a well known example of heretics that were considered Christian but rejected the Council of Nicea.

[United Islamic Commonwealth]

Does the Nicene Creed not clearly define a Christian?

The Nicene Creed defines Nicene Christianity. Arians are a well known example of heretics that were considered Christian but rejected the Council of Nicea.

I'm aware of the Arians. I believe it is New Haven America who is one. So, if the Nicene Creed is not required to be a Christian, what defines a Christian?

[Sulania]

Your religion is Christianity, which is not heresy. Your branch, however, is heresy because its doctrines are anti-biblical.

*sigh*

See what I mean?

Hey, as long as you're following what the Spirit is telling you in your heart, that's all I can really ask of you.

[Cill Airne]

The Nicene Creed defines Nicene Christianity. Arians are a well known example of heretics that were considered Christian but rejected the Council of Nicea.

I'm aware of the Arians. I believe it is New Haven America who is one. So, if the Nicene Creed is not required to be a Christian, what defines a Christian?

A person who has received Christian baptism and is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

[Constantinopolis]

The Nicene Creed defines Nicene Christianity. Arians are a well known example of heretics that were considered Christian but rejected the Council of Nicea.

I'm aware of the Arians. I believe it is New Haven America who is one. So, if the Nicene Creed is not required to be a Christian, what defines a Christian?

That's... a matter of debate. It's clear what defines Nicene Christianity, but it's not at all clear what defines non-Nicene Christianity. In other words, it's not clear where to draw the line between non-Nicene Christianity and non-Christianity.

For example, at some points in history, Islam was considered by some to be a type of non-Nicene Christianity.

Today, Mormonism is considered by some (including the Mormons themselves) as a type of non-Nicene Christianity, while others consider it a type of non-Christianity. Same goes for the Jehovah's Witness movement.

[The Alexanderians]

Yay us?

People of the Book gotta stick together against the rising atheist tide, y'know.

The Children of Abraham must unite against their common foe.

[The Parkus Empire]

If a Christian is declared a heretic, are they still considered a Christian? Or would it be comparable to invoking takfir where that person is considered an unbeliever?

A heretic is still a Christian. The technical term for leaving Christianity altogether is apostasy, rather than heresy. Calling someone an apostate is equivalent to invoking takfir.

But the line between heresy and apostasy can sometimes be blurry, in the case of really extreme heretics. Take, for example, "Bishop" John Shelby Spong. Heretic, or apostate? Hard to tell. He may or may not believe that God exists, depending on how we define "God" and "existence".

Apostate. He denies the Resurrection and not only is an atheist but actively works to make Christians atheists. His is an antichrist.

[The Parkus Empire]

A question for... pretty much everyone.

What does your particular denomination/religion believe about other denominations/religions? How much do you accept/ how friendly are you towards beliefs that you don't share? Are there certain faiths that you condemn and others you accept? Do you believe that people of other faiths can go to heaven?

There is only one true faith, and that is the Orthodox Christian faith. Other forms of Christianity are wrong about various things to a greater or lesser degree, ranging from basically-right-about-everything-except-for-one-tiny-issue (e.g. Oriental Communion) to almost-completely-wrong-in-practically-every-way (e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc).

Non-Christian religions tend to also fall in the almost-completely-wrong-in-practically-every-way category, but some of them can be correct about a few things. Judaism holds the special distinction of being not so much wrong as outdated. If we lived 2100 years ago, then most Jewish beliefs would be correct. And Islam holds the distinction of being the non-Christian (and non-Jewish) religion that is closest to Christianity, so Muslims are right about a few things (unlike, say, Hindus or Buddhists, who are fully 100% wrong).

However, being wrong - about a few things or about many things - does not necessarily make it impossible for a person to go to Heaven. It does make it more difficult, but not necessarily impossible. So, yes, people of other faiths may go to Heaven, but the further away you are from the true faith, the harder it is to enter Heaven.

As Islam dogmatically denies the crucifixion I consider it fundamentally opposed to Christianity in a way Hinduism is not. It is a reaction against Christ.

[Albrenia]

A heretic is still a Christian. The technical term for leaving Christianity altogether is apostasy, rather than heresy. Calling someone an apostate is equivalent to invoking takfir.

But the line between heresy and apostasy can sometimes be blurry, in the case of really extreme heretics. Take, for example, "Bishop" John Shelby Spong. Heretic, or apostate? Hard to tell. He may or may not believe that God exists, depending on how we define "God" and "existence".

Apostate. He denies the Resurrection and not only is an atheist but actively works to make Christians atheists. His is an antichrist.

It sits really badly with me as an Atheist, the idea of an Atheist continuing to be a priest after losing faith, or worse yet, becoming a priest while faithless. It's one thing to argue theology honestly, another entirely to pose as a minister of their faith and subvert it from within.

That's just me though.

[Bardarus]

Is there some kind of Ultimate Canon almost all Christian Denominations agree on, like how much common ground do all Christian Denominations have on Heresy.

[The Parkus Empire]

Apostate. He denies the Resurrection and not only is an atheist but actively works to make Christians atheists. His is an antichrist.

It sits really badly with me as an Atheist, the idea of an Atheist continuing to be a priest after losing faith, or worse yet, becoming a priest while faithless. It's one thing to argue theology honestly, another entirely to pose as a minister of their faith and subvert it from within.

That's just me though.

Anglicans would excommunicate him if they had any juice left.

[The Parkus Empire]

Is there some kind of Ultimate Canon almost all Christian Denominations agree on, like how much common ground do all Christian Denominations have on Heresy.

The Nicene Creed is the closest thing to a formal definition of Christian.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

[...]Take, for example, "Bishop" John Shelby Spong. [...]

>looks at his wiki

What am I looking at?

[Corpus Magnus]

If a Christian is declared a heretic, are they still considered a Christian? Or would it be comparable to invoking takfir where that person is considered an unbeliever?

A heretic is still a Christian. The technical term for leaving Christianity altogether is apostasy, rather than heresy. Calling someone an apostate is equivalent to invoking takfir.

But the line between heresy and apostasy can sometimes be blurry, in the case of really extreme heretics. Take, for example, "Bishop" John Shelby Spong. Heretic, or apostate? Hard to tell. He may or may not believe that God exists, depending on how we define "God" and "existence".

Apostate. Does not believe in any of the core tenets of Christianity.

[Corpus Magnus]

Is there some kind of Ultimate Canon almost all Christian Denominations agree on, like how much common ground do all Christian Denominations have on Heresy.

The Ten Commandments and the Bible. The thing with Christianity is that there is not a lack of an ultimate canon, it's just that no one agrees on how to interpret the existing canons.

[Cill Airne]

Apostate. He denies the Resurrection and not only is an atheist but actively works to make Christians atheists. His is an antichrist.

It sits really badly with me as an Atheist, the idea of an Atheist continuing to be a priest after losing faith, or worse yet, becoming a priest while faithless. It's one thing to argue theology honestly, another entirely to pose as a minister of their faith and subvert it from within.

That's just me though.

Trust me, as an Anglican it doesn't sit well with me that he continues to pose as a member of the Anglican clergy.

It sits really badly with me as an Atheist, the idea of an Atheist continuing to be a priest after losing faith, or worse yet, becoming a priest while faithless. It's one thing to argue theology honestly, another entirely to pose as a minister of their faith and subvert it from within.

That's just me though.

AnglicansEpiscopalians would excommunicate him if they had any juice left.

In the CoE or CoI he would have been excommunicated and defrocked. The Episcopalians, our dear American cousins, however seem to tolerate apostasy and heresy in favour of "tolerance and acceptance of all". Do keep in mind, also, excommunication works slightly different in the Anglican tradition.