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The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
273
34%
Eastern Orthodox
67
8%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
6
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
53
7%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
95
12%
Methodist
29
4%
Baptist
89
11%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
52
7%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
18
2%
Other Christian
113
14%
 
Total votes : 795

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Tarsonis Survivors
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Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:48 am

Did something happen to this thread? For some reason it's not showing up in my "view your posts" list....
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
A. Lincoln: "My concern is not whether God is on our side, My greatest concern is to be on God's side."
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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The Alexanderians
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Postby The Alexanderians » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:11 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Secundus Imperium Romanum wrote:ah, the good smell of thread... now we can defeat the muslims and retake jerusalem?


Except Jews have Jerusalem.

The Jews don't have Jerusalem, the Israelis have Jerusalem.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:46 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:Did something happen to this thread? For some reason it's not showing up in my "view your posts" list....


Same. It's reappeared since I've posted though.
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:54 pm

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:Did something happen to this thread? For some reason it's not showing up in my "view your posts" list....


Thursdays the forum gets reindexed. The view your posts can become wonky for a but.
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Tarsonis Survivors
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Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:09 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:Did something happen to this thread? For some reason it's not showing up in my "view your posts" list....


Thursdays the forum gets reindexed. The view your posts can become wonky for a but.


Ah, okay. Thanks.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
A. Lincoln: "My concern is not whether God is on our side, My greatest concern is to be on God's side."
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Constantinopolis
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Postby Constantinopolis » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:31 pm

So it's time for me to once again make a post in honour of a Great Feast of the Orthodox Church, because this month has two of them in quick succession. Today, September 14th, is when we mark that most imperial of feast days...

The Exaltation of the Holy Cross
(also called the Elevation of the Holy Cross)


Image

This day marks the event in A.D. 326 when the True Cross was first elevated (displayed) in Jerusalem, and exalted by the faithful, after being found by the Empress St. Helena as part of her mission to uncover Christian holy sites and relics in Palestine. The icon of the feast shows the bishop of Jerusalem lifting up the True Cross in front of the people, while St. Helena looks on. Sometimes the Emperor St. Constantine is also depicted, being shown the Cross by his mother, although he was not actually present at the event.

Among all the Great Feasts of the Orthodox Church, this is the only one that celebrates an event which did not happen during the Earthly life of Christ, or of His mother, or of the Apostles. It is the only one that skips forward to an event 300 years later. But it is an event with immense symbolic importance, and probably the single most important thing that happened in the history of the Church after the Apostolic age. It is the triumph of the Cross over the Eagle. The mother of a Roman Emperor, on behalf of her son, bowed down in worship before the Cross of Christ, and dedicated the Empire to Him. That very same Empire that crucified Him, three hundred years later, was at His feet.

Mere decades before this event, the Roman Empire was still in the midst of Diocletian's Great Persecution, which was the most systematic and most murderous attempt to stamp out the Christian faith, and included the martyrdoms of such great saints as St. Catherine of Alexandria, St. George, St. Demetrius, St. Sebastian and St. Euphemia. But the martyrs were victorious and the pagan empire lost. (this, by the way, seems to be the original meaning of the famous image of St. George slaying the dragon, before it acquired a legendary character)

Through suffering and persecution, the Church was victorious. The physical elevation of the True Cross symbolized the rise of the Cross throughout the entire Mediterranean world - the entire known world, to people living at the time.

Jesus Christ conquered Rome. Jesus Christ conquered Rome - the greatest worldly power that had ever existed. ΙΣ ΗΣ ΝΙΚΑ!

In later centuries, this celebration became strongly associated with praying for God to show mercy and favour upon the now-Christian Empire, especially in the Empire's times of need (plague, war, natural disasters). Thus it became, effectively, the official day to celebrate cooperation between Church and State, and to pray for God to grant military victories to Christian armies fighting against pagan/Zoroastrian/Muslim invaders. The idea of St. Helena "raising up the Cross" in Jerusalem became associated with the idea of victorious Christians raising up the banner of the cross. So, in its middle- and late-Byzantine form, this was the holiday to pray for Christian Victory of every kind (military, political, etc).

After the fall of the Byzantine Empire, these connotations of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross faded away, and the holiday became once again focused on remembering the suffering of Christ on the Cross and expressing our gratitude for His sacrifice. Still, this also remains a day to pray for the protection of Christians under persecution, and for Christianity to be victorious in the struggles of this world. It's still the closest thing to a "Victory to Christianity!" Day, and I love that about it.

But it is also a day of humility. Christ gained His victory over death through the utter humiliation of the Cross, so, when we pray for Christian victories, we must also humble ourselves. It was through the blood of martyrs that pagan Rome was defeated by the Cross. So, despite being a Great Feast of the Church, this is a fast day at the same time. And the church services for today include a lot of prostrations (bowing with your forehead to the ground). We must remember our sins, and humble ourselves before the Holy Cross of the Lord.

The hymns for the Exaltation of the Holy Cross are some of my favourite hymns of the entire Church year, so I hope you don't mind if I suggest a rather long list of YouTube videos:

Before Thy Cross (in English; I personally adore this hymn)
Before Thy Cross (also in English, from a live service)
Before Thy Cross (in Russian)
Before Thy Cross (in Georgian - I was pleasantly surprised to find this!)

Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") in multiple languages (part 1)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") in multiple languages (part 2)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") (in English, Arabic and Greek)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") (in English and Russian; from a parish church choir)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") (in Russian; professional choir)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") (in Arabic and Greek; monastery choirs)
Troparion for the Holy Cross ("O Lord, save Your people") (in Church Slavonic; video from a service at a monastery)

Original text of the Troparion (composed in the early 7th century during the Great Persian War):

Σώσον Κύριε τόν λαόν σου
Καί ευλόγησον τήν κληρονομίαν σου.
Νίκας τοίς Βασιλεύσι κατά βαρβάρων δωρούμενος
Καί τό σόν φυλάττων διά τού Σταυρού σου πολίτευμα.


O Lord, save Your people
And bless Your heritage.
Grant victory to the Emperor over the barbarians
And by the power of Your Cross, preserve Your commonwealth.
[lit. "Your polity"; also translatable as "Your state", "Your empire", etc.]

Modern text of the Troparion (one of several slightly-different versions):

O Lord, save Your people
And bless Your heritage.
Grant victory to the faithful over the enemy
And by the power of Your Cross, preserve Your habitation.


(where the original says "Grant victory to the Emperor over the barbarians", modern versions change that to "the faithful" and "the enemy", or something similar; and where the original says "Your commonwealth", in reference to the Empire, modern versions sometimes change that to "Your habitation" or some other reference to the Church)

Kontakion:

As You were voluntarily raised upon the cross for our sake,
Grant mercy to those who are called by Your Name, O Christ God;
Make all Orthodox Christians glad by Your power,
Granting them victories over their adversaries,
By bestowing on them the invincible trophy, Your weapon of peace.


Special hymn for the Holy Cross:

Before Thy cross, we bow down in worship, O Master, and Thy holy Resurrection we glorify. (x3)
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, both now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
And Thy holy Resurrection we glorify.
Before Thy cross, we bow down in worship, O Master, and Thy holy Resurrection we glorify.


(always followed by prostrations after - or during - the "before Thy cross" lines, as in this video)
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My posts on the 12 Great Feasts of the Orthodox Church: -I- -II- -III- -IV- -V- -VI- -VII- -VIII- [PASCHA] -IX- -X- -XI- -XII-

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Hakons
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Postby Hakons » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:14 pm

The Alexanderians wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Except Jews have Jerusalem.

The Jews don't have Jerusalem, the Israelis have Jerusalem.


Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople would be the first goal, along with Anatolia. :p
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The of Japan
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Postby The of Japan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:17 pm

Hakons wrote:
The Alexanderians wrote:The Jews don't have Jerusalem, the Israelis have Jerusalem.


Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople would be the first goal, along with Anatolia. :p

mecca and medina would be great targets

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Hakons
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Postby Hakons » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:27 pm

The of Japan wrote:
Hakons wrote:
Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople would be the first goal, along with Anatolia. :p

mecca and medina would be great targets


We don't have a casus belli for that
“That word, ‘conservative,’ is understood by people in different ways. Suppose you say that when we did arithmetic, we learned that two plus two equals four. It’s still the same, so am I then ‘conservative’ for saying so?” - Cardinal Arinze

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:27 pm

The of Japan wrote:
Hakons wrote:
Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople would be the first goal, along with Anatolia. :p

mecca and medina would be great targets


No, let's not.

Unless it's just to kick out the Sauds and maybe put a decent Muslim in charge of Arabia. Like King Abdullah of Jordan, the Stannis of the Middle East. :P
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“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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Constantinopolis
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Postby Constantinopolis » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:03 pm

Hakons wrote:Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Christian sites can be visited freely by foreigners, but the native Christians of the region (who are Arabs) are persecuted by Israel and do NOT have free access to the holy sites (various passes and permits are needed).

Israel is perfectly fine with Christian tourists and pilgrims, but it is dedicated to ethnically cleansing its territory of non-Jews, including the native Christian Arab population.

Secular Arab dictators are far better for Christianity than Israel is. After all, the founder of Ba'athism, Michel Aflaq, was a Christian.
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________________Communist. Leninist. Orthodox Christian.________________
Communism is the logical conclusion of Christian morality. "Whoever loves his neighbor as himself owns no more than his neighbor does", in the words of St. Basil the Great. The anti-theism of past Leninists was a tragic mistake, and the Church should be an ally of the working class.
My posts on the 12 Great Feasts of the Orthodox Church: -I- -II- -III- -IV- -V- -VI- -VII- -VIII- [PASCHA] -IX- -X- -XI- -XII-

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The of Japan
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Postby The of Japan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:10 pm

Constantinopolis wrote:
Hakons wrote:Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Christian sites can be visited freely by foreigners, but the native Christians of the region (who are Arabs) are persecuted by Israel and do NOT have free access to the holy sites (various passes and permits are needed).

Israel is perfectly fine with Christian tourists and pilgrims, but it is dedicated to ethnically cleansing its territory of non-Jews, including the native Christian Arab population.

Secular Arab dictators are far better for Christianity than Israel is. After all, the founder of Ba'athism, Michel Aflaq, was a Christian.

al aqsa is not directly controlled by Israel anyways, and Palestine should be true state, not puppet of its arab neighbors.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:09 pm

Hakons wrote:Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople


Please...not again....
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The of Japan
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Postby The of Japan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:10 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Hakons wrote:Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople


Please...not again....

konstaniyye is not Christian anymore

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:12 pm

The of Japan wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:
Please...not again....

konstaniyye is not Christian anymore

I'm sure sacking them will change that.
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The of Japan
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Postby The of Japan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:14 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
The of Japan wrote:konstaniyye is not Christian anymore

I'm sure sacking them will change that.

4th crusade was petty attempt by venice to dominate eastern mediterranian, that resulted in shit happening. Obviously we wouldn't destroy the city we want to liberate.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:17 pm

The of Japan wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:I'm sure sacking them will change that.

4th crusade was petty attempt by venice to dominate eastern mediterranian, that resulted in shit happening. Obviously we wouldn't destroy the city we want to liberate.


Image
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:39 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Hakons wrote:Let's be honest. If we want to crusade again, Constantinople


Please...not again....


Don't worry. We all pretty much realize that returning Constantinople to Christians is unrealistic at this point. As sad as that is.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:43 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:
Please...not again....


Don't worry. We all pretty much realize that returning Constantinople to Christians is unrealistic at this point.


It's realistic if you're willing to commit genocide on the people who live there
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Arcanstotska
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Postby Arcanstotska » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:44 pm

Constantinopolis wrote:
Hakons wrote:Well, the Israelis are largely Jewish, though that distinction has become more cultural than religious. Regardless, Christian sites can be visited freely, and Israeli rule is likely preferable to any other power in the region.

Christian sites can be visited freely by foreigners, but the native Christians of the region (who are Arabs) are persecuted by Israel and do NOT have free access to the holy sites (various passes and permits are needed).

Israel is perfectly fine with Christian tourists and pilgrims, but it is dedicated to ethnically cleansing its territory of non-Jews, including the native Christian Arab population.

Secular Arab dictators are far better for Christianity than Israel is. After all, the founder of Ba'athism, Michel Aflaq, was a Christian.

That's outright religious persecution. Israelis need to open up more, because I'm pretty sure God is NOT happy with them right now.
DEAD SPACE RULES

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The of Japan
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Postby The of Japan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:44 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Don't worry. We all pretty much realize that returning Constantinople to Christians is unrealistic at this point.


It's realistic if you're willing to commit genocide on the people who live there

just do what the soviets did to the germans in east Prussia, west Prussia, east pommern, Silesia, and the Sudetenland after WWII

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:45 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Don't worry. We all pretty much realize that returning Constantinople to Christians is unrealistic at this point.


It's realistic if you're willing to commit genocide on the people who live there


And you're advocating for that, Mr. Pacifist?
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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The of Japan
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Postby The of Japan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:45 pm

Arcanstotska wrote:
Constantinopolis wrote:Christian sites can be visited freely by foreigners, but the native Christians of the region (who are Arabs) are persecuted by Israel and do NOT have free access to the holy sites (various passes and permits are needed).

Israel is perfectly fine with Christian tourists and pilgrims, but it is dedicated to ethnically cleansing its territory of non-Jews, including the native Christian Arab population.

Secular Arab dictators are far better for Christianity than Israel is. After all, the founder of Ba'athism, Michel Aflaq, was a Christian.

That's outright religious persecution. Israelis need to open up more, because I'm pretty sure God is NOT happy with them right now.

yes, if there are sources for this systematic persecution by the state of Israel.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:46 pm

The of Japan wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:
It's realistic if you're willing to commit genocide on the people who live there

just do what the soviets did to the germans in east Prussia, west Prussia, east pommern, Silesia, and the Sudetenland after WWII


You mean ship them off to labor camps in Siberia?

Yeah, no.
Traditionalist Catholic and Constitutional Monarchist.

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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The of Japan
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Postby The of Japan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:47 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
The of Japan wrote:just do what the soviets did to the germans in east Prussia, west Prussia, east pommern, Silesia, and the Sudetenland after WWII


You mean ship them off to labor camps in Siberia?

Yeah, no.

that's not what they did, they forced them from their homes and to move west. 1 million died.

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