The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

[Salus Maior]

What do you guys think of regimes or groups such as the Iron Guard, Father Tiso's Slovakia, Rexists, Lapua movement, etc that are primarily based on the principles of clerical fascism? Devout Christians going a little too far, or power-hungry maniacs perverting the Good Book?

The only one I know even a little about is the Iron Guard, and they didn't sound particularly good.

Fascism is something to be avoided.

[Diopolis]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordat_of_1953

That speaks nothing of his virtues or spiritual condition. Or the motivations behind his aims.

All the available evidence points to Franco being a devout, God-fearing Catholic.

[United Muscovite Nations]

That speaks nothing of his virtues or spiritual condition. Or the motivations behind his aims.

All the available evidence points to Franco being a devout, God-fearing Catholic.

Yes, we shouldn't judge historical figures harshly on religious terms because we don't like their politics.

[The Blaatschapen]

All the available evidence points to Franco being a devout, God-fearing Catholic.

Yes, we shouldn't judge historical figures harshly on religious terms because we don't like their politics.

For those here who want a country set according to religious ideals, it is impossible to seperate these two. Because then religion and politics are intertwined by its very definition.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Yes, we shouldn't judge historical figures harshly on religious terms because we don't like their politics.

For those here who want a country set according to religious ideals, it is impossible to seperate these two. Because then religion and politics are intertwined by its very definition.

They're intertwined anyway, even if not overly. Religions are ideologies that influence the way people think. As long as religions exist they will always have an influence on politics.

[The Blaatschapen]

For those here who want a country set according to religious ideals, it is impossible to seperate these two. Because then religion and politics are intertwined by its very definition.

They're intertwined anyway, even if not overly. Religions are ideologies that influence the way people think. As long as religions exist they will always have an influence on politics.

Fair enough.

[The Alexanderians]

For those here who want a country set according to religious ideals, it is impossible to seperate these two. Because then religion and politics are intertwined by its very definition.

They're intertwined anyway, even if not overly. Religions are ideologies that influence the way people think. As long as religions exist they will always have an influence on politics.

Despite what some people claim should happen in a "free" democracy.

[The Parkus Empire]

This may be a stupid question, but is there any answer to why God didn't put the Tree of Knowledge behind a fence or something? Same goes for that darn talking snake.

Being omnipotent and all I'd imagine He'd know having the two in easy access of Adam and Eve could go horribly wrong.

I think you're missing the point and also the source of conflict in the narrative. The Bible, unlike pagan stories (drama aside), is focused in inner, psychological, moral and existential conflict, not outer conflict. Problems faced are not external conditions so much as existential ones. Trying to find solutions to Biblical issues through external solving is more of a pagan approach, where strength and craft are the ways problems are solved. The Bible features God, who is omnipotent and omniscient, and that right there makes all outer conflict moot, because he can do whatever he wants.

[Salus Maior]

For those here who want a country set according to religious ideals, it is impossible to seperate these two. Because then religion and politics are intertwined by its very definition.

They're intertwined anyway, even if not overly. Religions are ideologies that influence the way people think. As long as religions exist they will always have an influence on politics.

I mean, that's any kind of belief or lack of belief.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

They're intertwined anyway, even if not overly. Religions are ideologies that influence the way people think. As long as religions exist they will always have an influence on politics.

I mean, that's any kind of belief or lack of belief.

Indeed

[GrandKirche]

I ordered a book recently published for the wing of my denomination on the other side of the Atlantic (I'm a British Methodist) I was rather surprised at how different much is. Is this common for other non-conformists?

[Nordengrund]

I ordered a book recently published for the wing of my denomination on the other side of the Atlantic (I'm a British Methodist) I was rather surprised at how different much is. Is this common for other non-conformists?

I wouldn't really know. I did read Pilgrim's Progress in a Seventh Day Adventist school, and nothing about the writing was changed, we had to read it in Middle English. I don't know if that is what you mean, though.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

They're intertwined anyway, even if not overly. Religions are ideologies that influence the way people think. As long as religions exist they will always have an influence on politics.

Despite what some people claim should happen in a "free" democracy.

Except that's exactly what happens in a free democracy. There's a difference however between de jurr, religious influence and de facto religious influence.

[Hakons]

As a side note, I just realized that today, September 12th, in 1683, was a great victory for Christians at the Siege of Vienna. Where the Holy League made up of Germans, Austrians, and most notably, Polish, drove back the Ottomans from Vienna and halted their advance into Europe.

You might be wondering why I'm mentioning this. Well, because there's a metal song about it that's awesome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75zmIj_4LFQ

Here's a more thorough description of the battle.

It is recorded that the Polish cavalry slowly emerged from the forest to the cheers of the onlooking infantry, which had been anticipating their arrival. At 4:00 pm the Polish hussars first entered into action, battering the Turkish lines and approaching the Türkenschanze, which was now threatened from three sides (the Poles from the west, the Saxons and the Bavarians from the northwest and the Austrians from the north). At that point the Turkish vizier decided to leave this position and retreat to his headquarters in the main camp further south. However, by then many Ottomans were already leaving the battlefield.[9]
The allies were now ready for the last blow. At around 6:00 pm the Polish king ordered the cavalry attack in four groups, three Polish and one from the Holy Roman Empire. Eighteen thousand horsemen charged down the hills, one of the largest cavalry charges in history after some ancient charges.[23]:152 John III Sobieski led the charge[16]:661 at the head of 3,000 Polish heavy lancers, the famed "Winged Hussars". The Lipka Tatars who fought on the Polish side wore a sprig of straw in their helmets to distinguish themselves from the Tatars fighting on the Ottoman side. The charge easily broke the lines of the Ottomans, who were exhausted and demoralized and soon started to flee the battlefield. The cavalry headed straight for the Ottoman camps and Kara Mustafa's headquarters, while the remaining Viennese garrison sallied out of its defenses to join in the assault.[16]:661
The Ottoman troops were tired and dispirited following the failure of both the attempt at sapping and the assault on the city and the advance of the Holy League infantry on the Türkenschanze.[16]:661 The cavalry charge was one last deadly blow. Less than three hours after the cavalry attack, the Christian forces had won the battle and saved Vienna. The first Christian officer who entered Vienna was Margrave Ludwig of Baden, at the head of his dragoons.[9] Afterwards Sobieski paraphrased Julius Caesar's famous quotation (Veni, vidi, vici) by saying "Veni, vidi, Deus vicit"--"I came, I saw, God conquered".[16]:661

Hmm... so the Winged Hussars were actually heavy lancers, and not hussars?

I ordered a book recently published for the wing of my denomination on the other side of the Atlantic (I'm a British Methodist) I was rather surprised at how different much is. Is this common for other non-conformists?

Hi, I'm in the United Methodist Church (American)! Was it theologically different, or did it just focus on unexpected things?

[Ever Victorious Iron Willed Commanders]

Despite what some people claim should happen in a "free" democracy.

Except that's exactly what happens in a free democracy. There's a difference however between de jurr, religious influence and de facto religious influence.

I have no problem with religious beliefs influencing political beliefs as long as it isn't officially written into the legal system.

[Salus Maior]

As a side note, I just realized that today, September 12th, in 1683, was a great victory for Christians at the Siege of Vienna. Where the Holy League made up of Germans, Austrians, and most notably, Polish, drove back the Ottomans from Vienna and halted their advance into Europe.

You might be wondering why I'm mentioning this. Well, because there's a metal song about it that's awesome

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75zmIj_4LFQ

Here's a more thorough description of the battle.

It is recorded that the Polish cavalry slowly emerged from the forest to the cheers of the onlooking infantry, which had been anticipating their arrival. At 4:00 pm the Polish hussars first entered into action, battering the Turkish lines and approaching the Türkenschanze, which was now threatened from three sides (the Poles from the west, the Saxons and the Bavarians from the northwest and the Austrians from the north). At that point the Turkish vizier decided to leave this position and retreat to his headquarters in the main camp further south. However, by then many Ottomans were already leaving the battlefield.[9]
The allies were now ready for the last blow. At around 6:00 pm the Polish king ordered the cavalry attack in four groups, three Polish and one from the Holy Roman Empire. Eighteen thousand horsemen charged down the hills, one of the largest cavalry charges in history after some ancient charges.[23]:152 John III Sobieski led the charge[16]:661 at the head of 3,000 Polish heavy lancers, the famed "Winged Hussars". The Lipka Tatars who fought on the Polish side wore a sprig of straw in their helmets to distinguish themselves from the Tatars fighting on the Ottoman side. The charge easily broke the lines of the Ottomans, who were exhausted and demoralized and soon started to flee the battlefield. The cavalry headed straight for the Ottoman camps and Kara Mustafa's headquarters, while the remaining Viennese garrison sallied out of its defenses to join in the assault.[16]:661
The Ottoman troops were tired and dispirited following the failure of both the attempt at sapping and the assault on the city and the advance of the Holy League infantry on the Türkenschanze.[16]:661 The cavalry charge was one last deadly blow. Less than three hours after the cavalry attack, the Christian forces had won the battle and saved Vienna. The first Christian officer who entered Vienna was Margrave Ludwig of Baden, at the head of his dragoons.[9] Afterwards Sobieski paraphrased Julius Caesar's famous quotation (Veni, vidi, vici) by saying "Veni, vidi, Deus vicit"--"I came, I saw, God conquered".[16]:661

Hmm... so the Winged Hussars were actually heavy lancers, and not hussars?

Apparently. Although from what I've read, for heavy cavalry, Winged Hussars were faster and more maneuverable than other heavy cavs in their time.

Also, Hussars in other countries where they were traditionally used became heavier cavalry over the course of the 16th century. So I suppose the name stayed but the role changed.

A little bit of military history for the CDT

[Hakons]

Hmm... so the Winged Hussars were actually heavy lancers, and not hussars?

Apparently. Although from what I've read, for heavy cavalry, Winged Hussars were faster and more maneuverable than other heavy cavs in their time.

Also, Hussars in other countries where they were traditionally used became heavier cavalry over the course of the 16th century. So I suppose the name stayed but the role changed.

A little bit of military history for the CDT

Deus vicit!

[Salus Maior]

Apparently. Although from what I've read, for heavy cavalry, Winged Hussars were faster and more maneuverable than other heavy cavs in their time.

Also, Hussars in other countries where they were traditionally used became heavier cavalry over the course of the 16th century. So I suppose the name stayed but the role changed.

A little bit of military history for the CDT

Deus vicit!

Deus vicit! xP

On a similar note, I want to read St. Augustine's "The City of God" sometime. I think that's where the Christian theory of 'just war' comes from.

Of course, it's probably not going to be an easy read being written like, over a thousand years ago xP

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Hey Lumi! I don't know how we missed this, but it looks like Father Tom was released safe and sound.


https://cnstopstories.com/2017/09/13/fr ... e-francis/

[Luminesa]

Hey Lumi! I don't know how we missed this, but it looks like Father Tom was released safe and sound.


https://cnstopstories.com/2017/09/13/fr ... e-francis/

I SAW THAT! PRAISE GOD!!! : D

AND HE MET POPE FRANCIS!!!

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!

[Secundus Imperium Romanum]

ah, the good smell of thread... now we can defeat the muslims and retake jerusalem?

[Dylar]

ah, the good smell of thread... now we can defeat the muslims and retake jerusalem?

No. Well...only if ISIS somehow bypasses IDF security and takes Jerusalem out from under us.

[Salus Maior]

ah, the good smell of thread... now we can defeat the muslims and retake jerusalem?

Except Jews have Jerusalem.

[Salus Maior]

I was just in the shower and thinking (as I always do, unintentionally always making me take forever in the shower and upsetting everyone else in my house) about the doctrine of Sola Fide and the arguments surrounding it. Catholics tend to always go to James to refute the doctrine, but I've come to the conclusion that best evidence against the idea of "Faith alone" in terms of salvation isn't from James, but from Matthew.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25: 31-46

The passage is pretty straightforward; those who have done good works are welcomed into Heaven, whereas those that haven't...Well, don't. Christ makes it clear that works are a necessity for salvation, not faith alone. One could argue that the 'goats' in this passage didn't have faith (faith isn't even mentioned in this passage), but I don't think that's the case, as the 'goats' say “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ which I believe implies that they would if they knew the poor/suffering people were Christ Himself, which implies that they did believe that He was the Son of God. Nor did Christ condemn them for a lack of faith, but rather for a lack of good works.

Of course, this does not mean that works alone gives salvation either. Rather that works and faith are inseparable in the life of a Christian and in gaining salvation, and you can't have one without the other.

[The North Polish Union]

I would argue that true faith will always lead to good works while good works don't lead to true faith. In other words, it matters which end of the faith-works spectrum you start from. At the same time, claiming faith without having any works is a sign of spiritual immaturity at best (I would say that new believers can claim this and be true Christians, but as they grow in the faith the true believers will eventually show their faith through their works) and lukewarmness at worst (Rev. 3:15-16).

Of course, there's a balance to be struck between works and faith (one can be to consumed with works and lose sight of their faith, see the Pharisees) but where exactly that balancing point is has been a major source of theological debate for 2000 years.