Trump MAGAthread IX: Korea, The Dreamers and Trump

[Oil exporting People]

Trump said "Their bringing drugs, crime, rapists,..." not that the undocumented are criminals in themselves.

What he specifically said is irrelevant, illegal immigrants are by definition criminal by their very existence inside this nation.

[Clintonburge]

Trump said "Their bringing drugs, crime, rapists,..." not that the undocumented are criminals in themselves.

What he specifically said is irrelevant, illegal immigrants are by definition criminal by their very existence inside this nation.

It is unfortunate that in defending Trump we have to veer even from what he has actually said because it is in itself, indefensible.

[Oil exporting People]

It is unfortunate that in defending Trump we have to veer even from what he has actually said because it is in itself, indefensible.

Not in the slightest because whatever additional crimes the Illegals commit, they are still by definition criminals. It's very telling you avoided this point.

[Proctopeo]

Arguably he's using it correctly, if you go by the definition of "send" that means "cause to go", in which case the area and environment that Mexico encompasses, not the government, is being referred to as "Mexico".
The funny thing about the English language is that it's very easy to be technically correct, if you use the right definitions in the right ways.

"When Mexico sends its people..." He is not referring to the land mass he is referring to the Mexican government, anyway you spin it he is still demonizing a large group of people.

The ambiguity in the statement allows it to mean either.

[Clintonburge]

"When Mexico sends its people..." He is not referring to the land mass he is referring to the Mexican government, anyway you spin it he is still demonizing a large group of people.

The ambiguity in the statement allows it to mean either.

Yes, Trump is not a master of the English language and often has trouble using words properly.

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. ... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people," Trump said in his announcement speech. June 2015.

Source: What Donald Trump has said about Mexico and vice versa

[Geilinor]

No, actually. When he said "Mexico is sending us" he did NOT distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants.

Mexico doesn't deliver illegal migrants to the border and give them bottled water and a packed lunch for the walk, so in what sense is Mexico ... the nation or the government ... sending anyone? The only way that makes sense is if Trump was talking about LEGAL immigrants!

That's not what he meant of course. He was talking complete bollocks cobbled together around some xenophobic buzzwords and deliberately NOT distinguishing between legal and illegal immigrants.

Arguably he's using it correctly, if you go by the definition of "send" that means "cause to go", in which case the area and environment that Mexico encompasses, not the government, is being referred to as "Mexico".
The funny thing about the English language is that it's very easy to be technically correct, if you use the right definitions in the right ways.

Most people, including myself, interpreted "Mexico" to be a reference to the government. That's at least true of people who don't support Trump. A few years ago, a conservative talking point was that Mexico was helping people to migrate illegally.

[Ifreann]

False.

Let's hear about this fantasy world you're in.

It isn't a crime to be in the US illegally. People who are in the US illegally aren't put on trial, they're put through removal proceedings and deported.

Illegal isn't the same as criminal. If you're parked illegally your car will get towed. If you're parked criminally you'll go to prison. Though, I don't know how you could be parked criminally. On top of someone?

[Seangoli]

It is unfortunate that in defending Trump we have to veer even from what he has actually said because it is in itself, indefensible.

Not in the slightest because whatever additional crimes the Illegals commit, they are still by definition criminals. It's very telling you avoided this point.

Not necessarily. Crossing the border is a misdemeanor offense. Being undocumented is a civil offense, and not a criminal one. The majority of undocumented people came here through legal channels and just never left; meaning they are, in fact, not criminals as being in the country without documentation is not a criminal act.

Without proving that the person crossed the border, they are not actually committing any criminal offense at all and are, by definition, not criminals.

[Oil exporting People]

Most people, including myself, interpreted "Mexico" to be a reference to the government. That's at least true of people who don't support Trump. A few years ago, a conservative talking point was that Mexico was helping people to migrate illegally.

When they're producing pamphlets on how to get into the U.S. and remittances are their largest source of revenue, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

[Clintonburge]

Most people, including myself, interpreted "Mexico" to be a reference to the government. That's at least true of people who don't support Trump. A few years ago, a conservative talking point was that Mexico was helping people to migrate illegally.

When they're producing pamphlets on how to get into the U.S. and remittances are their largest source of revenue, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

The guidebook also advises would-be migrants to avoid hiring professional immigrant-smugglers and to refuse to carry packages for others. It also instructs people never to lie to border officials, carry false documents or resist arrest

Mexico's Foreign Ministry, however, said its intent in publishing the "Guide for the Mexican Migrant" was to warn migrants of the dangers they might face if they choose to slip illegally into the United States.

Still not proof of Mexico actually sending people to the USA unlawfully.

[Seangoli]

Most people, including myself, interpreted "Mexico" to be a reference to the government. That's at least true of people who don't support Trump. A few years ago, a conservative talking point was that Mexico was helping people to migrate illegally.

When they're producing pamphlets on how to get into the U.S. and remittances are their largest source of revenue, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

The pamphlet doesn't inform people how to get into the US at all; it tells people what to do, and what not to do, to minimize risk to one's life. In fact, the pamphlet actually tells people not to resist arrest or run from law enforcement. It is a how-to guide on how not to die, not a how-to guide on how to get into the US (As the pamphlet doesn't actually give any actual guidance on how to enter the country).

[Oil exporting People]

Not necessarily. Crossing the border is a misdemeanor offense. Being undocumented is a civil offense, and not a criminal one.

What fantasy world are you in?

Misdemeanors are less serious than felonies, either because the intent requirement is of a lower level or because the result is less extreme. Misdemeanors are usually punishable by jail time of one year or less per misdemeanor, a fine, or alternative sentencing like probation, rehabilitation, or community service. Note that incarceration for a misdemeanor is in jail rather than prison. The difference between jail and prison is that cities and counties operate jails, and the state or federal government operates prisons, depending on the crime. The restrictive nature of the confinement also differs between jail and prison. Jails are for defendants who have committed less serious offenses, so they are generally less restrictive than prisons.

The majority of undocumented people came here through legal channels and just never left; meaning they are, in fact, not criminals as being in the country without documentation is not a criminal act. Without proving that the person crossed the border, they are not actually committing any criminal offense at all and are, by definition, not criminals.

Again, what fantasy world are you in?

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

It isn't a crime to be in the US illegally. People who are in the US illegally aren't put on trial, they're put through removal proceedings and deported. Illegal isn't the same as criminal. If you're parked illegally your car will get towed. If you're parked criminally you'll go to prison. Though, I don't know how you could be parked criminally. On top of someone?

See above.

[Oil exporting People]

Still not proof of Mexico actually sending people to the USA unlawfully.

"I'm not an accessory to murder, I just told him how to kill someone!"

[Oil exporting People]

The pamphlet doesn't inform people how to get into the US at all; it tells people what to do, and what not to do, to minimize risk to one's life. In fact, the pamphlet actually tells people not to resist arrest or run from law enforcement. It is a how-to guide on how not to die, not a how-to guide on how to get into the US (As the pamphlet doesn't actually give any actual guidance on how to enter the country).

There's quite a bit of cognitive dissonance in this.

[Geilinor]

The pamphlet doesn't inform people how to get into the US at all; it tells people what to do, and what not to do, to minimize risk to one's life. In fact, the pamphlet actually tells people not to resist arrest or run from law enforcement. It is a how-to guide on how not to die, not a how-to guide on how to get into the US (As the pamphlet doesn't actually give any actual guidance on how to enter the country).

There's quite a bit of cognitive dissonance in this.

It tells people not to use false documentation or resist arrest. There's no promotion of any illegal activity there.

[Ifreann]

Not necessarily. Crossing the border is a misdemeanor offense. Being undocumented is a civil offense, and not a criminal one.

What fantasy world are you in?

Misdemeanors are less serious than felonies, either because the intent requirement is of a lower level or because the result is less extreme. Misdemeanors are usually punishable by jail time of one year or less per misdemeanor, a fine, or alternative sentencing like probation, rehabilitation, or community service. Note that incarceration for a misdemeanor is in jail rather than prison. The difference between jail and prison is that cities and counties operate jails, and the state or federal government operates prisons, depending on the crime. The restrictive nature of the confinement also differs between jail and prison. Jails are for defendants who have committed less serious offenses, so they are generally less restrictive than prisons.

The majority of undocumented people came here through legal channels and just never left; meaning they are, in fact, not criminals as being in the country without documentation is not a criminal act. Without proving that the person crossed the border, they are not actually committing any criminal offense at all and are, by definition, not criminals.

Again, what fantasy world are you in?

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

It isn't a crime to be in the US illegally. People who are in the US illegally aren't put on trial, they're put through removal proceedings and deported. Illegal isn't the same as criminal. If you're parked illegally your car will get towed. If you're parked criminally you'll go to prison. Though, I don't know how you could be parked criminally. On top of someone?

See above.

I saw it. Nothing there contradicts me. You cited law related to entering or attempting to enter the US, not being in the US.

[Clintonburge]

Still not proof of Mexico actually sending people to the USA unlawfully.

"I'm not an accessory to murder, I just told him how to kill someone!"

Can you point to where it is implicitly directing people to enter the US unlawfully? No where does it say to resist detention nor lie to the authorities.

[Proctopeo]

Arguably he's using it correctly, if you go by the definition of "send" that means "cause to go", in which case the area and environment that Mexico encompasses, not the government, is being referred to as "Mexico".
The funny thing about the English language is that it's very easy to be technically correct, if you use the right definitions in the right ways.

Most people, including myself, interpreted "Mexico" to be a reference to the government. That's at least true of people who don't support Trump. A few years ago, a conservative talking point was that Mexico was helping people to migrate illegally.

Note that the alternative interpretation isn't invalid just because most people interpreted it one way.

I did have to think for a moment to discover it, though.

[Oil exporting People]

It tells people not to use false documentation or resist arrest. There's no promotion of any illegal activity there.

Except for that whole inconvenient fact it helps explain to them how to best cross into the United States. Again, objective thinking is your friend here.

[Oil exporting People]

I saw it. Nothing there contradicts me. You cited law related to entering or attempting to enter the US, not being in the US.

Learn to read:

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

[The Black Forrest]

Trump deemed that illegal immigrants were criminals, drug-smugglers, and rapists.

In his speech where he said "Mexico is sending..." he specifically called immigrants from Mexico criminals, drug-smugglers, and rapists. Which is not true, most people who come from Mexico are not "bad hombres". Even if you're right that he is calling "illegal immigrants" criminals, drug-smugglers, and rapists, how is that true? Where are the data to generalize an entire group of people and the 11 million believed to be present in the USA?

Add in all his "efforts" to keep us safe center on rounding up known people who contribute and want to fit in.

He doesn't seem to be too worried about the "bad hombres"

[Geilinor]

It tells people not to use false documentation or resist arrest. There's no promotion of any illegal activity there.

Except for that whole inconvenient fact it helps explain to them how to best cross into the United States. Again, objective thinking is your friend here.

If it explicitly tells people to follow the law, why all the outrage?

[AiliailiA]

Arguably he's using it correctly, if you go by the definition of "send" that means "cause to go", in which case the area and environment that Mexico encompasses, not the government, is being referred to as "Mexico".
The funny thing about the English language is that it's very easy to be technically correct, if you use the right definitions in the right ways.

Most people, including myself, interpreted "Mexico" to be a reference to the government. That's at least true of people who don't support Trump. A few years ago, a conservative talking point was that Mexico was helping people to migrate illegally.

Thankyou Geilinor, you saved me from a warning for flaming. Your answer isn't exactly what I would say (if I could be calm and rebut the "point" made) but it will do.

Proctopeo, you'd be doing me a great favor if you simply didn't reply to any of my posts. Put me on Ignore if that helps.

[MERIZoC]

Still not proof of Mexico actually sending people to the USA unlawfully.

"I'm not an accessory to murder, I just told him how to kill someone!"

Take a gun, point it at a vital part of the body, and shoot.

I just told you how to kill someone, but odds are that post isn't gonna implicate me if you decide to go do it mods no ban

[The Black Forrest]

It tells people not to use false documentation or resist arrest. There's no promotion of any illegal activity there.

Except for that whole inconvenient fact it helps explain to them how to best cross into the United States. Again, objective thinking is your friend here.

So what is the issue?