Nazi Vote and Free Video Games Scenario

[Oil exporting People]

Still down from 2008 though.

And that election was down from 1960.

[Infected Mushroom]

is that a piece of pro democracy propaganda?

...How is telling people that their vote matters "propaganda"?

Because voting is a mechanism of social control and it shouldn't work (because its such a blatant attempt to hide plutocracy/party machine control), they give you a statistical Nothing and people are trained to defend it to death and think "We Are a Free People"

But bigger picture aside, let's look at the poster... it gives off creepy 1930s brainwashing vibes in volumes...

Smiling, "everyday" workman/mechanic/farmer? Check.

Creepy but empty slogans? Check. "My vote counts as much as the President's vote." "Freedom is everybody's job."

The whole thing just smacks of attempted indoctrination, posters like these drown out any actual arguments that look at cause and effect and actual mechanic by just saying stuff like this ("Freedom is everybody's job") and having creepy "everyday" Americans smile at you.

[Galloism]

On?

The totality of all of the relevant factors.

Which relevant factors change the result?

[Infected Mushroom]

The totality of all of the relevant factors.

Which relevant factors change the result?

Potentially any factor. It just depends on what we're talking about.

With respect to voting, the overriding factor is that One Vote does not decide electoral outcomes in the foreseeable future, hence its practical uselessness.

[Alvecia]

Which relevant factors change the result?

Potentially any factor. It just depends on what we're talking about.

With respect to voting, the overriding factor is that One Vote does not decide electoral outcomes in the foreseeable future, hence its practical uselessness.

Similarly a penny can buy you pratically nothing, so why even have currency?

[Infected Mushroom]

Potentially any factor. It just depends on what we're talking about.

With respect to voting, the overriding factor is that One Vote does not decide electoral outcomes in the foreseeable future, hence its practical uselessness.

Similarly a penny can buy you pratically nothing, so why even have currency?

Currency operates as a medium of exchange.

However, I would be willing to trade a single penny for an infinite supply of free video games, and I feel it would be absurd to suggest that trading a single penny endangers or threatens the entire currency system.

[Alvecia]

Similarly a penny can buy you pratically nothing, so why even have currency?

Currency operates as a medium of exchange.

However, I would be willing to trade a single penny for an infinite supply of free video games, and I feel it would be absurd to suggest that trading a single penny endangers or threatens the entire currency system.

My point was you refuse to look at the bigger context, like you've just handily applied to currency.

[Infected Mushroom]

Currency operates as a medium of exchange.

However, I would be willing to trade a single penny for an infinite supply of free video games, and I feel it would be absurd to suggest that trading a single penny endangers or threatens the entire currency system.

My point was you refuse to look at the bigger context, like you've just handily applied to currency.

I am looking at the bigger context. My One Vote does absolutely nothing for or against the current system, its essentially non existent already. That I get to trade it for free goodies is beyond fantastic.

[Alvecia]

My point was you refuse to look at the bigger context, like you've just handily applied to currency.

I am looking at the bigger context. My One Vote does absolutely nothing for or against the current system, its essentially non existent already. That I get to trade it for free goodies is beyond fantastic.

>Says he's looking at the larger context
>Focuses on his own single vote.

[Infected Mushroom]

I am looking at the bigger context. My One Vote does absolutely nothing for or against the current system, its essentially non existent already. That I get to trade it for free goodies is beyond fantastic.

>Says he's looking at the larger context
>Focuses on his own single vote.

Does the OP talk about other people's votes?

No. So then why should they factor into the decision? Whether I take or don't take the deal, the rest of the masses continue in their default behaviour. I'd be mistaken to consider my single action of trading or not trading One Vote as being so influential as to risk systemic collapse.

[Galloism]

Which relevant factors change the result?

Potentially any factor. It just depends on what we're talking about.

This is called "evasiveness" and it's not cute. Come up with a criteria set that makes things useful or useless (with voting apparently being in the useless column) so that we va examine your criteria for effectiveness.

To say "this only talks about voting" is a plea for special exception. Special exceptions require greater evidence.

With respect to voting, the overriding factor is that One Vote does not decide electoral outcomes in the foreseeable future, hence its practical uselessness.

So the overriding factor is that one of something won't decide the result? You sure about that?

[Galloism]

Similarly a penny can buy you pratically nothing, so why even have currency?

Currency operates as a medium of exchange.

However, I would be willing to trade a single penny for an infinite supply of free video games, and I feel it would be absurd to suggest that trading a single penny endangers or threatens the entire currency system.

Its worth noting that currency only works as a medium because of collective action. The fact that everyone believes it has value and uses it as such is what gives it its value. Money has no inherent worth by itself. It's not even particularly useful as toilet paper.

If an individual gives up the usage of currency, the entire system loses a little bit of value and utility, but not much. If many do, the currency collapses.

Sound familiar?

[Alvecia]

>Says he's looking at the larger context
>Focuses on his own single vote.

Does the OP talk about other people's votes?

No. So then why should they factor into the decision? Whether I take or don't take the deal, the rest of the masses continue in their default behaviour. I'd be arrogant to consider my single action of trading or not trading One Vote as being so influential as to risk systemic collapse.

The OP wasn't just aimed at a single person though. It was aimed at this forum. Sure in the hypothetical, everyone else gets on with their life, but the attitude and the idea that a single vote is unimportant isn't limited by your hypothetical.

If, hypothetically, your little idea causes a significant propotion of people to consider their vote worthless, then that can very much be influential. The idea that a vote is worthless is dangerous becasue an idea is not limited to a single person.

[Infected Mushroom]

Potentially any factor. It just depends on what we're talking about.

This is called "evasiveness" and it's not cute. Come up with a criteria set that makes things useful or useless (with voting apparently being in the useless column) so that we va examine your criteria for effectiveness.

To say "this only talks about voting" is a plea for special exception. Special exceptions require greater evidence.

With respect to voting, the overriding factor is that One Vote does not decide electoral outcomes in the foreseeable future, hence its practical uselessness.

So the overriding factor is that one of something won't decide the result? You sure about that?

Every single right has to be analysed on its own merits, taking into account all of the relevant factors

Its a fruitless exercise to come up with a checklist for All Rights.

And the OP doesn't demand that we come up with such a checklist to answer the hypothetical. We are only required to consider the value of a personal right to vote. You're just assigning way more work than the OP warrants so I wouldn't call it evasiveness, just a degree of reasoned humility (I understand the fruitlessness of working with something much larger and much more complicated).

[Infected Mushroom]

Does the OP talk about other people's votes?

No. So then why should they factor into the decision? Whether I take or don't take the deal, the rest of the masses continue in their default behaviour. I'd be arrogant to consider my single action of trading or not trading One Vote as being so influential as to risk systemic collapse.

The OP wasn't just aimed at a single person though. It was aimed at this forum. Sure in the hypothetical, everyone else gets on with their life, but the attitude and the idea that a single vote is unimportant isn't limited by your hypothetical.

If, hypothetically, your little idea causes a significant propotion of people to consider their vote worthless, then that can very much be influential. The idea that a vote is worthless is dangerous becasue an idea is not limited to a single person.

Even if everyone on this forum were to vote Communist or Republican tomorrow we'd still have the same system.

[Alvecia]

The OP wasn't just aimed at a single person though. It was aimed at this forum. Sure in the hypothetical, everyone else gets on with their life, but the attitude and the idea that a single vote is unimportant isn't limited by your hypothetical.

If, hypothetically, your little idea causes a significant propotion of people to consider their vote worthless, then that can very much be influential. The idea that a vote is worthless is dangerous becasue an idea is not limited to a single person.

Even if everyone on this forum were to vote Communist tomorrow we'd still have the same system.

If everyone on this forum told all their friends and family, and so on and so forth, change might be a possibility. Ideas spread quickly. Particularly in the age of information.

[Infected Mushroom]

Currency operates as a medium of exchange.

However, I would be willing to trade a single penny for an infinite supply of free video games, and I feel it would be absurd to suggest that trading a single penny endangers or threatens the entire currency system.

Its worth noting that currency only works as a medium because of collective action. The fact that everyone believes it has value and uses it as such is what gives it its value. Money has no inherent worth by itself. It's not even particularly useful as toilet paper.

If an individual gives up the usage of currency, the entire system loses a little bit of value and utility, but not much. If many do, the currency collapses.

Sound familiar?

Did I propose a hypothetical where a large number of people give up their votes?

[Galloism]

This is called "evasiveness" and it's not cute. Come up with a criteria set that makes things useful or useless (with voting apparently being in the useless column) so that we va examine your criteria for effectiveness.

To say "this only talks about voting" is a plea for special exception. Special exceptions require greater evidence.


So the overriding factor is that one of something won't decide the result? You sure about that?

Every single right has to be analysed on its own merits, taking into account all of the relevant factors

Its a fruitless exercise to come up with a checklist for All Rights.

And the OP doesn't demand that we come up with such a checklist to answer the hypothetical. We are only required to consider the value of a personal right to vote. You're just assigning way more work than the OP warrants so I wouldn't call it evasiveness, just a degree of reasoned humility (I understand the fruitlessness of working with something much larger and much more complicated).

Then you've made your proposal impossible to analyze for merit, impossible to argue about, and therefore ill suited to a debate forum. If you refuse to debate, why are you here?

Par for the course, I guess.

[Infected Mushroom]

Even if everyone on this forum were to vote Communist tomorrow we'd still have the same system.

If everyone on this forum told all their friends and family, and so on and so forth, change might be a possibility. Ideas spread quickly. Particularly in the age of information.

I feel that this is idealistic

if anything, the forum is likely to largely cancel itself out democratically (hence it would have been a net benefit for everyone involved to stay at home instead)

[Alvecia]

If everyone on this forum told all their friends and family, and so on and so forth, change might be a possibility. Ideas spread quickly. Particularly in the age of information.

I feel that this is idealistic

if anything, the forum is likely to largely cancel itself out democratically (hence it would have been a net benefit for everyone involved to stay at home instead)

Did the hypothetical allow for this forum to cancel itself out?

[Galloism]

Its worth noting that currency only works as a medium because of collective action. The fact that everyone believes it has value and uses it as such is what gives it its value. Money has no inherent worth by itself. It's not even particularly useful as toilet paper.

If an individual gives up the usage of currency, the entire system loses a little bit of value and utility, but not much. If many do, the currency collapses.

Sound familiar?

Did I propose a hypothetical where a large number of people give up their votes?

I'm pointing out that a power isn't worthless because it relies on collective action.

[Infected Mushroom]

Did I propose a hypothetical where a large number of people give up their votes?

I'm pointing out that a power isn't worthless because it relies on collective action.

the power is only worth something if exercised in collective action (and only where such action doesn't cancel itself out, ex 30 people voting in opposite directions and cancelling)

in the vast majority of situations, its worthless

and on a personal level, its not worth much

[Alvecia]

I'm pointing out that a power isn't worthless because it relies on collective action.

the power is only worth something if exercised in collective action (and only where such action doesn't cancel itself out, ex 30 people voting in opposite directions and cancelling)

in the vast majority of situations, its worthless

and on a personal level, its not worth much

If something isn't intended to be used on a personal level, why even consider it in said context?
Do we judge boats by how well they can fly?

[Galloism]

I'm pointing out that a power isn't worthless because it relies on collective action.

the power is only worth something if exercised in collective action (and only where such action doesn't cancel itself out, ex 30 people voting in opposite directions and cancelling)

in the vast majority of situations, its worthless

and on a personal level, its not worth much

Voting never cancels itself out completely, very specifically. Someone is always elected. Therefore, it never "cancels ourself out".

[Infected Mushroom]

the power is only worth something if exercised in collective action (and only where such action doesn't cancel itself out, ex 30 people voting in opposite directions and cancelling)

in the vast majority of situations, its worthless

and on a personal level, its not worth much

If something isn't intended to be used on a personal level, why even consider it in said context?
Do we judge boats by how well they can fly?

When I decide whether or not I want to sell my boat, I consider the boat's practical and economic value to me personally... I don't go into an analysis that considers the consequences of everyone else selling their boats or what would happen to a country that started to run out of boats in hands like mine