Nazi Vote and Free Video Games Scenario

[Infected Mushroom]

the power is only worth something if exercised in collective action (and only where such action doesn't cancel itself out, ex 30 people voting in opposite directions and cancelling)

in the vast majority of situations, its worthless

and on a personal level, its not worth much

Voting never cancels itself out completely, very specifically. Someone is always elected. Therefore, it never "cancels ourself out".

but a large number of votes do cancel out, meaning that those people could meet together, and come up with a gentleman's agreement to stay at home during election day and the outcome would remain unchanged (while benefitting all such parties)

[Alvecia]

If something isn't intended to be used on a personal level, why even consider it in said context?
Do we judge boats by how well they can fly?

When I decide whether or not I want to sell my boat, I consider the boat's practical and economic value to me personally... I don't go into an analysis that considers the consequences of everyone else selling their boats or what would happen to a country that started to run out of boats in hands like mine

That's judging it in context (can it float?), which you aren't doing for your vote.

[Alvecia]

Voting never cancels itself out completely, very specifically. Someone is always elected. Therefore, it never "cancels ourself out".

but a large number of votes do cancel out, meaning that those people could meet together, and come up with a gentleman's agreement to stay at home during election day and the outcome would remain unchanged (while benefitting all such parties)

Right up to the point where one side decides to vote anyway so they can win.

[Infected Mushroom]

When I decide whether or not I want to sell my boat, I consider the boat's practical and economic value to me personally... I don't go into an analysis that considers the consequences of everyone else selling their boats or what would happen to a country that started to run out of boats in hands like mine

That's judging it in context (can it float?), which you aren't doing for your vote.

for the vote it would be... can my one vote net me any benefit personally (and the answer is no, because whether I use it randomly or avoid using it... the electoral outcome is the same)

For the boat, I would decide based on the benefits of my one boat... I may decide I wouldn't sell the boat because the boat I have provides me with invaluable advantages; but I certainly wouldn't avoid selling it because OTHER PEOPLE's boats, when used together, are useful.

[Galloism]

Voting never cancels itself out completely, very specifically. Someone is always elected. Therefore, it never "cancels ourself out".

but a large number of votes do cancel out, meaning that those people could meet together, and come up with a gentleman's agreement to stay at home during election day and the outcome would remain unchanged (while benefitting all such parties)

But enforcing that agreement would take more work than just voting, so that's a silly hypothetical. It's like saying "people could get together and agree to just exchange their stuff with each other in an equitable fashion and the outcome would remain unchanged compared with using money to trade".

Which they could. It's called bartering. Money is still useful.

[Vassenor]

I mean I'm still waiting for an explanation for how "your vote doesn't matter" outweighs "these people want to fucking kill me so why should I vote for them".

[Infected Mushroom]

but a large number of votes do cancel out, meaning that those people could meet together, and come up with a gentleman's agreement to stay at home during election day and the outcome would remain unchanged (while benefitting all such parties)

But enforcing that agreement would take more work than just voting, so that's a silly hypothetical. It's like saying "people could get together and agree to just exchange their stuff with each other in an equitable fashion and the outcome would remain unchanged compared with using money to trade".

Which they could. It's called bartering. Money is still useful.

Money may be useful, but a single penny is still relatively (or completely) useless.

If you had a strong and efficient machinery for mobilising thousands and millions of votes, then in such a situation, a form of voting can be useful. However, it doesn't change the fact that a single vote is relatively (or completely) useless.

The hypothetical doesn't ask you to trade away the machinery (which in any event, only the rich and the party machines control), it asks you to trade away a single vote.

So the analogous version of this to money if we're to apply it to the hypothetical, would be a scenario that asks you to trade a single penny for infinite video games. Any arguments about how Money can be useful in other situation would be irrelevant.

In the same vein, its silly to assess the value of a single personal vote, with the assumption that it can somehow be mobilised collectively with thousands/millions of other votes when such things are monopolised by other powers outside of your control.

[Infected Mushroom]

I mean I'm still waiting for an explanation for how "your vote doesn't matter" outweighs "these people want to fucking kill me so why should I vote for them".

You should vote for them (in this hypothetical) because voting for them does absolutely nothing (they won't get elected because of your 1 vote, its completely outside of the control of your 1 vote)...

meanwhile, you get free infinite goodies

so when you weigh the pros and cons, it becomes clear that you should trade

[Alvecia]

That's judging it in context (can it float?), which you aren't doing for your vote.

for the vote it would be... can my one vote net me any benefit personally (and the answer is no, because whether I use it randomly or avoid using it... the electoral outcome is the same)

For the boat, I would decide based on the benefits of my one boat... I may decide I wouldn't sell the boat because the boat I have provides me with invaluable advantages; but I certainly wouldn't avoid selling it because OTHER PEOPLE's boats, when used together, are useful.

The vote isn't intended to benefit you personally, it's meant to be used collectively to benefit a group, with you in it. Therefore considering it personally is pointless.

Similarly a boat is intended to benefit you personally, through practical use and value. Therefore considering is collectively is also pointless.

You can understand why it's weird to consider a boat in a context it's not meant to be. Why can't you a vote?

[Vassenor]

I mean I'm still waiting for an explanation for how "your vote doesn't matter" outweighs "these people want to fucking kill me so why should I vote for them".

You should vote for them (in this hypothetical) because voting for them does absolutely nothing (they won't get elected because of your 1 vote, its completely outside of the control of your 1 vote)...

meanwhile, you get free infinite goodies

so when you weigh the pros and cons, it becomes clear that you should trade

Can't use the free infinite stuff if I'm dead.

And no, my vote does not have zero value just because you say so. I don't care if that makes this whole thing fall apart.

[Infected Mushroom]

for the vote it would be... can my one vote net me any benefit personally (and the answer is no, because whether I use it randomly or avoid using it... the electoral outcome is the same)

For the boat, I would decide based on the benefits of my one boat... I may decide I wouldn't sell the boat because the boat I have provides me with invaluable advantages; but I certainly wouldn't avoid selling it because OTHER PEOPLE's boats, when used together, are useful.

The vote isn't intended to benefit you personally, it's meant to be used collectively to benefit a group, with you in it. Therefore considering it personally is pointless.

Similarly a boat is intended to benefit you personally, through practical use and value. Therefore considering is collectively is also pointless.

You can understand why it's weird to consider a boat in a context it's not meant to be. Why can't you a vote?

because the collective thing gets done a certain way, whether or not a single person participates in it or not (and you are participating, technically, you are voting Nazi every election from now on, it just so happens that that does nothing beyond the symbolic)

[Infected Mushroom]

You should vote for them (in this hypothetical) because voting for them does absolutely nothing (they won't get elected because of your 1 vote, its completely outside of the control of your 1 vote)...

meanwhile, you get free infinite goodies

so when you weigh the pros and cons, it becomes clear that you should trade

Can't use the free infinite stuff if I'm dead.

And no, my vote does not have zero value just because you say so. I don't care if that makes this whole thing fall apart.

if you're dead because the Nazis got elected?

Well, your One Vote didn't cause it to happen (and wouldn't have stopped it if you cast it the othe way). Is that a comfort?

[Ifreann]

Voting never cancels itself out completely, very specifically. Someone is always elected. Therefore, it never "cancels ourself out".

but a large number of votes do cancel out, meaning that those people could meet together, and come up with a gentleman's agreement to stay at home during election day and the outcome would remain unchanged (while benefitting all such parties)

Why would anyone abide by such an agreement if they could break it to their political benefit? Some might call it dishonourable, but what worth is honour?

[Genivaria]

Can't use the free infinite stuff if I'm dead.

And no, my vote does not have zero value just because you say so. I don't care if that makes this whole thing fall apart.

if you're dead because the Nazis got elected?

Well, your One Vote didn't cause it to happen (and wouldn't have stopped it if you cast it the othe way). Is that a comfort?

That's pretty likely for alot of people yeah, don't be so daft that you pretend that that's an unreasonable assumption.

[Infected Mushroom]

but a large number of votes do cancel out, meaning that those people could meet together, and come up with a gentleman's agreement to stay at home during election day and the outcome would remain unchanged (while benefitting all such parties)

Why would anyone abide by such an agreement if they could break it to their political benefit? Some might call it dishonourable, but what worth is honour?

Hmmmm... you may have a point

[Alvecia]

The vote isn't intended to benefit you personally, it's meant to be used collectively to benefit a group, with you in it. Therefore considering it personally is pointless.

Similarly a boat is intended to benefit you personally, through practical use and value. Therefore considering is collectively is also pointless.

You can understand why it's weird to consider a boat in a context it's not meant to be. Why can't you a vote?

because the collective thing gets done a certain way, whether or not a single person participates in it or not (and you are participating, technically, you are voting Nazi every election from now on, it just so happens that that does nothing beyond the symbolic)

That doesn't decrease the collective value of your vote. Nor does it allow for the collective value to be properly considered in a personal context.

[Genivaria]

I would never, ever, ever give support or funding in any way to a group of people who would see my friends and neighbors and loved ones dragged out of their homes and shot.

[Infected Mushroom]

if you're dead because the Nazis got elected?

Well, your One Vote didn't cause it to happen (and wouldn't have stopped it if you cast it the othe way). Is that a comfort?

That's pretty likely for alot of people yeah, don't be so daft that you pretend that that's an unreasonable assumption.

Let's say they get elected (because your countries turns out to be full of Nazis in the future), and then they kill you (as you suggest might happen)...

Do you really feel that in such a situation, your One Vote could have prevented this political outcome? I don't know what kind of pro-democracy propaganda that transcends statistics and numbers has to be at work for someone to believe that their One Vote could have changed the leadership of the entire country.

If the people want to vote Nazi, they will. And you are powerless to stop it, whether you live in a democracy or a dictatorship... as far as your One Vote is concerned.

[Alvecia]

That's pretty likely for alot of people yeah, don't be so daft that you pretend that that's an unreasonable assumption.

Let's say they get elected (because your countries turns out to be full of Nazis in the future), and then they kill you (as you suggest might happen)...

Do you really feel that in such a situation, your One Vote could have prevented this political outcome? I don't know what kind of pro-democracy propaganda that transcends statistics and numbers has to be at work for someone to believe that their One Vote could have changed the leadership of the entire country.

If the people want to vote Nazi, they will. And you are powerless to stop it, whether you live in a democracy or a dictatorship... as far as your One Vote is concerned.

It's hypothetically possible for one vote to be the difference between one thing and another. You don't know until the results come out.

[Infected Mushroom]

because the collective thing gets done a certain way, whether or not a single person participates in it or not (and you are participating, technically, you are voting Nazi every election from now on, it just so happens that that does nothing beyond the symbolic)

That doesn't decrease the collective value of your vote. Nor does it allow for the collective value to be properly considered in a personal context.

The collective value is literally Nil.

I vote Republican today with my One Vote? Will that change the electoral outcome? No.

I vote Democrat instead with my One Vote? No, nothing changes because of it.

I don't vote? I vote based on a coin flip? I transfer the right to vote (assuming its legal)? Again... nothing changes.

The value is literally Nil.

The outcome is X... whether N +1 or N votes were used to do it. You literally cannot change anything nor bolster anything. No one gains any marked increased governance capabilities because they were elected by N + 1 votes instead of N. You have literally wasted your time. You could have voted against N for all anyone cared.

[Infected Mushroom]

Let's say they get elected (because your countries turns out to be full of Nazis in the future), and then they kill you (as you suggest might happen)...

Do you really feel that in such a situation, your One Vote could have prevented this political outcome? I don't know what kind of pro-democracy propaganda that transcends statistics and numbers has to be at work for someone to believe that their One Vote could have changed the leadership of the entire country.

If the people want to vote Nazi, they will. And you are powerless to stop it, whether you live in a democracy or a dictatorship... as far as your One Vote is concerned.

It's hypothetically possible for one vote to be the difference between one thing and another. You don't know until the results come out.

when was the last time its happened?

[Alvecia]

That doesn't decrease the collective value of your vote. Nor does it allow for the collective value to be properly considered in a personal context.

The collective value is literally Nil.

I vote Republican today with my One Vote? Will that change the electoral outcome? No.

I vote Democrat instead with my One Vote? No, nothing changes because of it.

I don't vote? I vote based on a coin flip? I transfer the right to vote (assuming its legal)? Again... nothing changes.

The value is literally Nil.

The outcome is X... whether N +1 or N votes were used to do it. You literally cannot change anything nor bolster anything. No one gains any marked increased governance capabilities because they were elected by N + 1 votes instead of N. You have literally wasted your time. You could have voted against N for all anyone cared.

You're confusing collective value with personal value again.

[Alvecia]

It's hypothetically possible for one vote to be the difference between one thing and another. You don't know until the results come out.

when was the last time its happened?

Hypothetically? It's happening right now.

[Genivaria]

That's pretty likely for alot of people yeah, don't be so daft that you pretend that that's an unreasonable assumption.

Let's say they get elected (because your countries turns out to be full of Nazis in the future), and then they kill you (as you suggest might happen)...

Do you really feel that in such a situation, your One Vote could have prevented this political outcome? I don't know what kind of pro-democracy propaganda that transcends statistics and numbers has to be at work for someone to believe that their One Vote could have changed the leadership of the entire country.

If the people want to vote Nazi, they will. And you are powerless to stop it, whether you live in a democracy or a dictatorship... as far as your One Vote is concerned.

If everyone thought like you then we'd be screwed over a long time ago.

[Infected Mushroom]

Let's say they get elected (because your countries turns out to be full of Nazis in the future), and then they kill you (as you suggest might happen)...

Do you really feel that in such a situation, your One Vote could have prevented this political outcome? I don't know what kind of pro-democracy propaganda that transcends statistics and numbers has to be at work for someone to believe that their One Vote could have changed the leadership of the entire country.

If the people want to vote Nazi, they will. And you are powerless to stop it, whether you live in a democracy or a dictatorship... as far as your One Vote is concerned.

If everyone thought like you then we'd be screwed over a long time ago.

Would we though?

Its hard to say. Things get done one way or another, we're all missing the bigger picture of how things are done because we're clawing at each other over which corporate puppet gets to run the country.

If this scam didn't work, who's to say what other clever setup they would have come up with?

Chances in either event, the same cultural, economic, and political forces would have been at play to create a comparable result. It's the same group of rich, powerful people playing the same games.. its just the rhetoric with which they play it.