Explain Socialism to a Libertarian

[Torrentio]

Hello General branch! After a long hiatus from NationStates, I thought I'd start my return off educationally. I'm a born and raised Libertarian Centrist, and I've always been curious about other forms of economic/political systems. With all of the commies and fascists running around (figuratively AND literally) I thought I'd look into the vague and vary from Social Democrats to Anarcho-Communists. The specific type I'd like to be worded to is the Nordic Model, given those nation's economic successes. I'd rather keep this away from politics, plz, and just stick to the actual information. Thank you in advance!

[Gaazikumukh]

Well, you see, when a mommy socialist and a daddy socialist love each other very much...

[Torrentio]

Thank you, Gaazikumukh.

[Bakery Hill]

Well to start off with the Nordic Model is not socialist.

[Torrentio]

Explain then, please. I've heard other socialists call it so.

[Solomons Land]

You already know how capitalism works. Socialism is where the government supplies the basics and then usually follows a capitalistic model.

[Bakery Hill]

Explain then, please. I've heard other socialists call it so.

Very basically if the system retains private property and the free market, it's still capitalism. Government intervention in an economy doesn't mean socialism. If that's the case we should probably call Bismarck's Germany socialist, along with many other conservative and reactionary regimes.

[The Remote Islands]

A big part of the Nordic model's success is that it cares enough about public welfare systems like education and healthcare to give them very good funding, to the point where they're nearly universally free of charge for all citizens. They're not means-tested like in America or Great Britain. That alone would pay huge dividends down the road for the US if Congress would consider it for literally one minute. There's the question of how it's paid for, of course, which seems fairly easy to answer: ease of doing business that's supplemented with risk sharing/a strong social safety net, North Sea oil, and taxes on corporations/the rich that lie somewhere above "eh, let them keep it all".

The Nordic model is more of a capitalist/socialist hybrid than a socialist system, but as far as I'm concerned it still works pretty well. As far as leftism goes, it's not like Scandinavia is comprised of authoritarian Marxist-Leninist hellholes too busy strip mining, forcibly collectivizing, and imprisoning dissidents to make things better for the people. They do things fairly reasonably, which makes it all the more perplexing when you have some Americans demonizing them as evil communists.

[Tinfect]

You already know how capitalism works. Socialism is where the government supplies the basics and then usually follows a capitalistic model.

That is absolutely wrong in every conceivable way. Socialism is an economic system entirely apart from the Capitalist mode of production. Please do not spread misinformation.

[Donut section]

Socialism is the belief that theft is okay as long as the government is doing it.

[Kistan]

Good luck getting anyone to agree on what exactly counts as 'socialist'. Some people say Stalinism is 'socialist' as a way of either defending what's usually called Communism or to smear other left-wing beliefs, some say the Nordic nations are 'real' socialists to defend or mock socialism itself, and some say that any government interference is socialism to argue for or against market economies. As far as I've seen, not even self-proclaimed socialists can agree on what socialism is, and usually end up with a bunch of people insisting that 'they're not real socialists, we are!'.

[Jiyon]

As a proud Socialist, I'll try to explain neutrally:

Socialism is an economic (NOT government type) system where private ownership is allowed but limited, although private enterprise does make significant contributions, and where wealth is distributed amongst the populace through social programs. It is considered a hybrid of capitalism and communism. This can result in higher taxes, but usually for the wealthier. Socialism also places tight regulations on banks and businesses. It usually comes with perks like free healthcare and education, payed for by higher taxes on the wealthy.

Misconceptions cleared:

Socialism is NOT a type of government. Many think that a "socialist government" is ruled by some Dictator who oppresses his people, but that is not the case. It's simply an economic theory, which is designed to help the poor through assistance by the more fortunate. It can, sometimes, result in corruption or dictatorships, where the taxes go to the givenrment's needs, not the people's, but this doesn't always occur.


Hope I've cleared it up.

[Bakery Hill]

Socialism is the belief that theft is okay as long as the government is doing it.

Capitalism is the belief that theft is okay so long as the private sector is doing it.

[Bakery Hill]

Good luck getting anyone to agree on what exactly counts as 'socialist'. Some people say Stalinism is 'socialist' as a way of either defending what's usually called Communism or to smear other left-wing beliefs, some say the Nordic nations are 'real' socialists to defend or mock socialism itself, and some say that any government interference is socialism to argue for or against market economies. As far as I've seen, not even self-proclaimed socialists can agree on what socialism is, and usually end up with a bunch of people insisting that 'they're not real socialists, we are!'.

I would prefer the Nordic Model to the Soviet Union. But the Soviets were socialists and the Nordic countries are not.

[Kistan]

Good luck getting anyone to agree on what exactly counts as 'socialist'. Some people say Stalinism is 'socialist' as a way of either defending what's usually called Communism or to smear other left-wing beliefs, some say the Nordic nations are 'real' socialists to defend or mock socialism itself, and some say that any government interference is socialism to argue for or against market economies. As far as I've seen, not even self-proclaimed socialists can agree on what socialism is, and usually end up with a bunch of people insisting that 'they're not real socialists, we are!'.

I would prefer the Nordic Model to the Soviet Union. But the Soviets were socialists and the Nordic countries are not.

Okay, but other people who say they're socialists (regardless of if you consider that right or wrong) would disagree. From an outside perspective, it's rather hard to distinguish which group is right based on a we say/they say argument, and so-called 'democratic socialism' has muddled the waters on which belief is more appropriate in the mindset of the current world. I think even the USSR had some confusion over what socialism was, given the claims to communist ideals and vague origins of the many different socialist movements.

[Bakery Hill]

I would prefer the Nordic Model to the Soviet Union. But the Soviets were socialists and the Nordic countries are not.

Okay, but other people who say they're socialists (regardless of if you consider that right or wrong) would disagree. From an outside perspective, it's rather hard to distinguish which group is right based on a we say/they say argument, and so-called 'democratic socialism' has muddled the waters on which belief is more appropriate in the mindset of the current world.

Yes it's not cut and dry. Some people are right and others are wrong :^)

[The Free Territory of Makhnovia]

As a lofelong communist and a historian I'll try to do it simply:

First of all most Marxist consider socialism a first step on the way to communism. Many people talk about socialism and communism in terms of state-controlled economy but this is not correct- socialism is economic model that is specific in regards to the ownership of means od production. While in capitalism means of productions can be privately owned, in socialism they are owned by those that work in them- either directly through workers council's or through government representatives that are considered legitimate in eyes of the workers. Where is the difference between communism and socialism- well Marx thought that existance of socialist means of ownership combined with political model called dictatorship of the proletariat- where workers seize not only economic but political power- will lead to communism aka society which eliminates economic inequlity.

[Torrentio]

Thanks to everyone who's clearing this up, really, especially to those who are keeping politics out. It's been pretty informative reading through this.

[The Liberated Territories]

Socialism is the belief that theft is okay as long as the government is doing it.

Capitalism is the belief that theft is okay so long as the private sector is doing it.

Here's a picture of all the things the capitalist stole from you:

[Aclion]

I want my fucking box back!

[The Free Territory of Makhnovia]

Capitalism is the belief that theft is okay so long as the private sector is doing it.

Here's a picture of all the things the capitalist stole from you:

How about refrainig from acts trolling and bickering in a thread where someone is asking for an informed answer?

[The Liberated Territories]

Here's a picture of all the things the capitalist stole from you:

How about refrainig from acts trolling and bickering in a thread where someone is asking for an informed answer?

He already got his answer from Donut Selection, I am merely defending him

[Taihei Tengoku]

The "Nordic model" stopped existing in the 1990s. The Norwegian government is only barely above the United States (and below the UK) in government spending:GDP, and Estonia spends even less. A lot of social services are now marketized in Scandinavia, such as schools and (the provision of) healthcare. Minimum wages are also negotiated between businesses and unions rather than set by the state; the legal minimum wage in Denmark does not exist. You can start a business in Norway by filling out a single .pdf online, and it's not much harder in the rest of Scandinavia.

The difference is revenue sources. The US dollar is the world's reserve currency so the United States constantly has people willing to give it money because it's an incredibly safe investment. From the US side this is called debt. Scandinavia is small and some of them don't even have their own currencies, so it doesn't have people lining up at the door to give them money. Therefore a lot more of government spending is financed by the tax intake (and oil money for Norway) and therefore the perception of government size is bigger. Also, most Nordics are monoethnic and therefore think of welfare as helping the guy next door vice the United States where even the white people are multiethnic and square off in oppositional coalitions.

[New Tuva SSR]

Capitalism is the belief that theft is okay so long as the private sector is doing it.

Here's a picture of all the things the capitalist stole from you:

Socialism is the belief that theft is okay as long as the government is doing it.

So, how does that boot taste?

[Bakery Hill]

Capitalism is the belief that theft is okay so long as the private sector is doing it.

Here's a picture of all the things the capitalist stole from you:

They stole many things apart from boxes, but this is a good start at least, thank you.