Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Chestaan]

Like I said about sixty times now, there are clear drawbacks to human rights abuses that are not present when allowing citizens the right to self-determination.

Apart from pure bias, why should the US have been allowed independence but Catalonia doesn't get that right?

There's literally an entire document that explained why the US should have been allowed Independence. Catalonia's reasons are,"Because we want to."

So if Catalonia wrote an independence declaration then that would make it ok?

[The of Japan]

There's literally an entire document that explained why the US should have been allowed Independence. Catalonia's reasons are,"Because we want to."

So if Catalonia wrote an independence declaration then that would make it ok?

depends on what's in it, and who wins

[Thermodolia]

Catalonia must become independant ! Every people is in right to ask for independence, as the human rights declarations says. And Spain is in my opinion, not really democratic these times. Catalonia deserves independence ! (and that will destroy one of our neighbor's economy, at last...)

I hope y'all enjoy being apart of the third French Empire

[Purpelia]

So if Catalonia wrote an independence declaration then that would make it ok?

depends on what's in it, and who wins

Why do their reasons matter? The only thing that should matter is if the people of Catalonia agree with the move.

[Thermodolia]

Democracy is the will of the people. Not some people, all of the people. I suppose that they'll have to deal with it — the tyranny of the majority usually comes hand in hand with democracy.



Oh, well, in that case. If they vote for independence, and Spain ultimately decides, "nah, fuck off", what then? Revolution? Good luck with that, a bunch of rebels fighting a professional army in a land said professional army probably knows just as well as you.

Spain would already have lost the war before it started. I'm sure Catalans are already turning against Spain because of their heavy handed tactics. The news media of the world is showing pictures of peaceful protestors getting battered and shot at with rubber bullets. How long do you think the international community, or indeed Spain's own citizens will back a repressive war against Catalonia?

I would. I'd totally support American involvement in crushing Catalonia.

[The of Japan]

depends on what's in it, and who wins

Why do their reasons matter? The only thing that should matter is if the people of Catalonia agree with the move.

once the rebellion fails, that will be conveniently "forgotten".

[Purpelia]

Why do their reasons matter? The only thing that should matter is if the people of Catalonia agree with the move.

once the rebellion fails, that will be conveniently "forgotten".

Notice I used the word "should". As in I was discussing the morality of the issue. Reality and morality rarely have much in common.

[Thermodolia]

I don't understand, I don't see them beating civilians.

According to some people it is bad. In this scenario Alabama disagrees.

So do I. See my flag.

Except in places like Iran where they banned homosexuality, but that's not "true self determination" I guess.

Never said it was.

No, supporting US Independence means I support US Independence. If I supported self determination then I'd be for every Texit, Scexit, Catexit, and Puerto Rexit that comes my way. I'd also condone Iran's governance if I wanted to be consistent.

Like I said about sixty times now, there are clear drawbacks to human rights abuses that are not present when allowing citizens the right to self-determination.

Apart from pure bias, why should the US have been allowed independence but Catalonia doesn't get that right?

Because I like the US.

[Sanctissima]

once the rebellion fails, that will be conveniently "forgotten".

Notice I used the word "should". As in I was discussing the morality of the issue. Reality and morality rarely have much in common.

So I assume if you're so adamantly in favour of the right of a people to self-determination, you're A-okay with your own country being carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey and reduced to a collection of irrelevant little nation-states?

Or does that suddenly change the paradigm, because reasons? :^)

[Purpelia]

Notice I used the word "should". As in I was discussing the morality of the issue. Reality and morality rarely have much in common.

So I assume if you're so adamantly in favour of the right of a people to self-determination, you're A-okay with your own country being carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey and reduced to a collection of irrelevant little nation-states?

Or does that suddenly change the paradigm, because reasons? :^)

I am in favor of an all or nothing approach when it comes to rights*. That is to say either you support a right for all people at all times or for nobody and at no time. So either you allow turkey carving or you are against every split ever. And I dislike people who make arguments for selective rights and worse yet those who oppose it on principal but are willing to grandfather in exceptions.

So my argument to him is "Either you support it or you don't. The reason of the particular example should not matter."


* Obviously this is about societies and cultures as opposed to individuals. I am not advocating for individual human rights or some sort of globalist view on giving everyone every right or what ever the new left is doing these days. Nor am I a supporter of the modern move toward forcing societies to give their people rights even if they don't want them. Certain societies willingly give up certain rights. And that should be allowed and respected as long as that society remains in agreement with that.

All I am saying is that you must judge all examples of the same thing by the equal measure. And that measure is nothing or all with no exceptions, iffs and buts.

[Kramania]

And yes, Austrians are literally French. They just think they're different cause they have a separate history. But at the end of the day they're German.

So, are Austrians French or Germans? I see you're confused too, who's belonging where to whom

No. I already said they're Deutsch.

[Sanctissima]

So I assume if you're so adamantly in favour of the right of a people to self-determination, you're A-okay with your own country being carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey and reduced to a collection of irrelevant little nation-states?

Or does that suddenly change the paradigm, because reasons? :^)

I am in favor of an all or nothing approach when it comes to rights*. That is to say either you support a right for all people at all times or for nobody and at no time. So either you allow turkey carving or you are against every split ever. And I dislike people who make arguments for selective rights and worse yet those who oppose it on principal but are willing to grandfather in exceptions.

So my argument to him is "Either you support it or you don't. The reason of the particular example should not matter."


* Obviously this is about societies and cultures as opposed to individuals. I am not advocating for individual human rights or some sort of globalist view on giving everyone every right or what ever the new left is doing these days. Nor am I a supporter of the modern move toward forcing societies to give their people rights even if they don't want them. Certain societies willingly give up certain rights. And that should be allowed and respected as long as that society remains in agreement with that.

All I am saying is that you must judge all examples of the same thing by the equal measure. And that measure is nothing or all with no exceptions, iffs and buts.

That's... extreme ideological purism. There's nothing wrong with taking a balanced approach, and more often than not such an approach is necessary for civilization to see any form of progress. Call it hypocrisy if you will, but this "all or nothing" mindset has done nothing for anyone, ever.

[Union of Despotistan]

I voted yes because I like to see "Progressive Western Europe" in chaos.

[Aellex]

By the way, question for Aellex:

Shoudn't you actually, totally, support Catalonians now, to annex them later into Greater France? It happened before. And Catalonians always made remarks about being more French than Spanish.
Consume entire Spain proved to be a problem, but Barcelone? Why not?

Don't you want Region of Catalogne, of French Republic?

I can neither confirm nor deny that a short "Restoration of Order" in the Marches d'Espagne would be planned in the eventuality that Spain can not manage to keep its hold on this territory. :^)

[Vassenor]

I voted yes because I like to see "Progressive Western Europe" in chaos.

So how does this achieve that?

[The of Japan]

I voted yes because I like to see "Progressive Western Europe" in chaos.

So how does this achieve that?

by starting a war I guess

[MERIZoC]

This is insane. Assaults on peaceful protesters, open fascists celebrating the crackdown in the streets, ballot boxes stolen by police. Anyone who looks at people trying to fucking vote who are getting their heads cracked open and says "they broke the law" is an apologist for the worst kinds of authoritarianism, and it's no surprise that most of the people in this thread who oppose the referendum are cryptos.

Special shoutout to the Catalan firefighters though, protecting the rights of the people against the police. Good stuff.

[Chestaan]

Like I said about sixty times now, there are clear drawbacks to human rights abuses that are not present when allowing citizens the right to self-determination.

Apart from pure bias, why should the US have been allowed independence but Catalonia doesn't get that right?

Because I like the US.

I remember you saying that and I respect that you are open about your motivations.

[Chestaan]

I voted yes because I like to see "Progressive Western Europe" in chaos.

Europe has been in chaos almost as far back as 2008.

[Sanctissima]

This is insane. Assaults on peaceful protesters, open fascists celebrating the crackdown in the streets, ballot boxes stolen by police. Anyone who looks at people trying to fucking vote who are getting their heads cracked open and says "they broke the law" is an apologist for the worst kinds of authoritarianism, and it's no surprise that most of the people in this thread who oppose the referendum are cryptos.

Special shoutout to the Catalan firefighters though, protecting the rights of the people against the police. Good stuff.

They've literally held an illegal referendum and are directly violating the Spanish constitution.

But do go on about how the poor Catalans are being brutally oppressed by the evil Spanish. :^)

[Chestaan]

Guy Verhofstadt makes first condemnation by a senior EU politician

A weak and lily-livered condemnation if ever there was one, but a condemnation nonetheless. One part of his statement drew my eye, however:

On one hand, the separatist parties went forward with a so-called referendum that was forbidden by the Constitutional Court, knowing all too well that only a minority would participate as 60 % of the Catalans are against separation.

I have no idea where he is getting his numbers from but as far as I am aware the issue of independence is much much closer than 60-40. In addition, while it is a tossup as to whether they want to leave or not, most at the very least want a referendum to take place.

[Senkaku]

This is insane. Assaults on peaceful protesters, open fascists celebrating the crackdown in the streets, ballot boxes stolen by police. Anyone who looks at people trying to fucking vote who are getting their heads cracked open and says "they broke the law" is an apologist for the worst kinds of authoritarianism, and it's no surprise that most of the people in this thread who oppose the referendum are cryptos.

Special shoutout to the Catalan firefighters though, protecting the rights of the people against the police. Good stuff.

They're literally holding a referendum that the Constitution says is completely illegal. It's like if South Carolina held a referendum on secession, for example.

There's no way Madrid is going to tolerate it, and I have zero sympathy for Catalans whining about how they're being oppressed when they're literally inciting it by threatening secession.

But you're our "smash the state" guy, those poow opwessed catawans

[Chessmistress]

As former resident in Barcelona: Sí ("yes")
There have been more than 500 wounded people today, but according reports the number of votes exceeded 50%.
My heart is with Catalunya.

[Chestaan]

This is insane. Assaults on peaceful protesters, open fascists celebrating the crackdown in the streets, ballot boxes stolen by police. Anyone who looks at people trying to fucking vote who are getting their heads cracked open and says "they broke the law" is an apologist for the worst kinds of authoritarianism, and it's no surprise that most of the people in this thread who oppose the referendum are cryptos.

Special shoutout to the Catalan firefighters though, protecting the rights of the people against the police. Good stuff.

They've literally held an illegal referendum and are directly violating the Spanish constitution.

But do go on about how the poor Catalans are being brutally oppressed by the evil Spanish. :^)

Missing the point. Whether or not you agree with the referendum, surely you agree that the people of Catalonia have a right to protest?

[Chestaan]

This is insane. Assaults on peaceful protesters, open fascists celebrating the crackdown in the streets, ballot boxes stolen by police. Anyone who looks at people trying to fucking vote who are getting their heads cracked open and says "they broke the law" is an apologist for the worst kinds of authoritarianism, and it's no surprise that most of the people in this thread who oppose the referendum are cryptos.

Special shoutout to the Catalan firefighters though, protecting the rights of the people against the police. Good stuff.

They're literally holding a referendum that the Constitution says is completely illegal. It's like if South Carolina held a referendum on secession, for example.

There's no way Madrid is going to tolerate it, and I have zero sympathy for Catalans whining about how they're being oppressed when they're literally inciting it by threatening secession.

But you're our "smash the state" guy, those poow opwessed catawans

So you don't care if ordinary civilians get the shit kicked out of them as long as they don't hold the same opinions as you?