Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

[...]That's exactly the thing. If the Catalonians want independence, make an obviously legitimate if not strictly legal vote for it, and are still not granted it, bloodshed will follow. Best case scenario is a prolonged terrorist campaign, like the Troubles, worst case is an all-out civil war.

So I suppose it's just too bad for them. If they're denied independence, and they really want it so bad, they'll have to fight for it. Whatever the case, it is 1:02 am here, so I'll just concede the argument — I wouldn't bother replying, I won't reply back.

The same goes for our discussion, @G-Tech Corporation.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

EDIT: They wouldn't be subject to a piece of paper written by foreigners?

The Declaration of Human Rights. Unless this was written by an Alabamian?

[Trumptonium]

Spain would already have lost the war before it started. I'm sure Catalans are already turning against Spain because of their heavy handed tactics. The news media of the world is showing pictures of peaceful protestors getting battered and shot at with rubber bullets. How long do you think the international community, or indeed Spain's own citizens will back a repressive war against Catalonia?

Most likely for longer than the one and a half day it would last.
And I dunno how Anglo medias cover it but the French ones are overwhelmingly in support of our Spanish friends.

American right media is overwhelmingly pro-law enforcement using force, American left media is vague but showing police brutality.

British right media doesn't really care and mostly interviews both sides, British left media shows Catalonians as oppressed and needing independence.

Bonus from my knowledge; Russia Today and TV1 are trying hard to push the Catalans to break away by showing uninterrupted polling stations mapped live, while Polish media haven't even shown Catalan voting stations or pro-ind protests.

[Chestaan]

The same way I believe Saudi Arabia should be dealt with, sanctions and lots of them.

>Being this against self determination

I noticed you haven't answered the question I edited in.

My answer is the Declaration of Independence, a piece of paper which outlines the colonies' grievances.

How is it against self-determination?

Yep, a piece of paper that was deemed illegal. I take it you plan to vow loyalty to the Queen any second?

[Kramania]

Uh, no, it doesn't. A group of people can't suddenly vote to remove themselves from a country just because they want to. That's not how it's ever worked and that's not how it ever will work. These destroyers of countries can fuck off.

I can only assume that you also opposed the breaking up of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and the USSR? All these people should have sat down and shut up instead of breaking up "their" countries.

The Soviet Union was authoritarian. Spain is not.

But the destruction of the USSR and Yugoslavia resulted in a lot of turmoil and chaos (particularly in Yugoslavia's case). Czechoslovakia was the only breakup there that didn't have a lot of problems, and even then there were still issues. So yes, it would have been preferential if they had stuck together. Perhaps under different governments, but still together.

[Chestaan]

EDIT: They wouldn't be subject to a piece of paper written by foreigners?

The Declaration of Human Rights. Unless this was written by an Alabamian?

I never said they would be subject to it. Unless they chose to be. Self-determination means you get to choose your government, it doesn't mean you get to commit flagrant human rights abuses without reprecussions.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

>Being this against self determination

My answer is the Declaration of Independence, a piece of paper which outlines the colonies' grievances.

How is it against self-determination?

"A people has the right to decide its own course, unless what they decide on is something I don't like."

Yep, a piece of paper that was deemed illegal. I take it you plan to vow loyalty to the Queen any second?

Illegal by the same people who ignored legitimate grievances.

[Kramania]

Except they weren't being pushed. There was no reason for Catalans to want independence in the first place!

Exactly why no Catalonians want independence, right? It’s all just fake news, paid protestors on the streets trying destroy the Spanish nation.

So who is oppressing them? They can already vote in Spanish elections, and they're an autonomous community so they already have more priveleges than most other Spanish regions.

[Ellarine]

My question to all the people supporting Catalonia, why do we even have countries if their existence is clearly so arbitrary?

[Chestaan]

How is it against self-determination?

"A people has the right to decide its own course, unless what they decide on is something I don't like."

Yep, a piece of paper that was deemed illegal. I take it you plan to vow loyalty to the Queen any second?

Illegal by the same people who ignored legitimate grievances.

Again, I'm not being inconsistent. People have the right to choose their own government, not the right to commit human rights abuses.

So what? Illegal is illegal. You don't get to obey the laws you like and break those you don't. Catalonia has no less a right to secede than the US did. And if you want a legitimate grievance for Catalonia, how about Spanish police beating up protestors?

[Zottistan]

Exactly why no Catalonians want independence, right? It’s all just fake news, paid protestors on the streets trying destroy the Spanish nation.

So who is oppressing them? They can already vote in Spanish elections, and they're an autonomous community so they already have more priveleges than most other Spanish regions.

The very fact that the Spanish have to give them concessions to keep them placated should be a good indicator that they don't belong in Spain.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Exactly why no Catalonians want independence, right? It’s all just fake news, paid protestors on the streets trying destroy the Spanish nation.

So who is oppressing them? They can already vote in Spanish elections, and they're an autonomous community so they already have more priveleges than most other Spanish regions.

I believe I’ve already stated in this thread that I, personally, support Catalonia remaining in Spain.

But my opinion does not mean the matter is decided for the Catalonian people; they can vote for independence for any reason or none, as they individually wish. To prevent them voting on their own futures, that is oppression.

[Zottistan]

My question to all the people supporting Catalonia, why do we even have countries if their existence is clearly so arbitrary?

The concept of the nation, of a group of people with a common cultural, historical and linguistic heritage, bound to a homeland and usually sharing a concept of a bloodline, is basically sacred in the depths of a healthy human mind. It's far from arbitrary. It's one of the most profound social structures we have, after marriage and the family.

It's just that big nations have a habit of bullying little ones.

[Socialist Czechia]

I can only assume that you also opposed the breaking up of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and the USSR? All these people should have sat down and shut up instead of breaking up "their" countries.

The Soviet Union was authoritarian. Spain is not.

But the destruction of the USSR and Yugoslavia resulted in a lot of turmoil and chaos (particularly in Yugoslavia's case). Czechoslovakia was the only breakup there that didn't have a lot of problems, and even then there were still issues. So yes, it would have been preferential if they had stuck together. Perhaps under different governments, but still together.

Better comparison with Spain is IMO Austrian Empire/Austria-Hungary.

I mean, Spain is much less divided, but same as Austrian realm, Spain holds together by amount of 'lenient tyranny', huge bureacracy and industrialist circles, all of it covered by inefficiency, corruption and great economic differences amongst the regions.
With occasional appeasement to the separatist parts, much like Dualism in 1867, which somehow worked for a time, but would crumble anyway, even without Great War, as Austria-Hungary had massive debts in European (mostly French) banks and others, like Czechs or Croatians, felt like second-class citizens.
The Emperor didn't even bother to crown himself King of Bohemia, much like no King of Spain didn't crowned himself King of Aragon since 1714.

Yeah, the comparison is relatively a-okay there.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

The Declaration of Human Rights. Unless this was written by an Alabamian?

I never said they would be subject to it. Unless they chose to be.

If they are forced to abide by its principles, then that are forced to be subject to it.

Self-determination means you get to choose your government, it doesn't mean you get to commit flagrant human rights abuses without reprecussions.

So they don't have a right to choose their own leaders, they must choose a leader based on the international community's criteria.

But hey,I guess I'm not describing "true" self determination, because you're unable to see the this concept to its logical conclusion.

[G-Tech Corporation]

My question to all the people supporting Catalonia, why do we even have countries if their existence is clearly so arbitrary?

Because of the social contract of historical civilization and the consent of the governed, obviously.

Though you can equally make the argument that most countries exist because of past military conflicts and political inertia.

[Socialist Czechia]

Considering the very actual appearence to rebellious Mossos protecting referendum, I really hope Rajoy will be stupid enough to send tanks.

That would really seal the existence of Republic of Catalonia. Nothing would be better for national liberation propaganda.

[Chestaan]

I never said they would be subject to it. Unless they chose to be.

If they are forced to abide by its principles, then that are forced to be subject to it.

Self-determination means you get to choose your government, it doesn't mean you get to commit flagrant human rights abuses without reprecussions.

So they don't have a right to choose their own leaders, they must choose a leader based on the international community's criteria.

But hey,I guess I'm not describing "true" self determination, because you're unable to see the this concept to its logical conclusion.

Not killing gay people is not a bad thing because it says it is on a piece of paper. It is on that piece of paper because it is a bad thing.

They can choose whatever leader they like. What they can't do is commit human rights abuses. This really isn't hard. I'm for self-determination because it is democratic and there is no good reason to oppose it. I'm opposed to having governments ban religions or homosexuality, even if they want to, because they are human rights abuses. Is breaking free from Spain a human rights abuse?

But anyway, you're all for self-determination when it suits you.

[Grandile]

While I'm indifferent on Catalan independence, I think that Spain should at least allow the vote to happen. I know their current constitution doesn't allow it, but they should at least discus the possibility of allowing it.

Ultimately, I actually think it would follow along the same lines as the Scottish independence referendum and that a 'silent majority' of voters would back the status quo, especially if the idea of 'autonomy max' was offered or whatever.

Unfortunately, the problem with nationalism is that it never goes away. Separatists would lose by 2-to-1 on 100% of the vote and still claim there's a 'moral' case for independence.

If the whole federalist EU thing would take off then any and all independence movements could be given the go ahead because they'd all just be new provinces of the EU. But that's an entirely different matter.

[Trumptonium]

I really hope Rajoy will be intelligent enough to send tanks.

Indeed seeing tanks roll down the streets would be an arousing sight to witness, nevertheless, I'm sure the Catalans aren't that much of a challenge.

[Zottistan]

I really hope Rajoy will be intelligent enough to send tanks.

Indeed seeing tanks roll down the streets would be an arousing sight to witness, nevertheless, I'm sure the Catalans aren't that much of a challenge.

Somehow I think the international community and Spanish society in general would be rather miffed about that.

[Socialist Czechia]

I really hope Rajoy will be stupidenough to send tanks.

Indeed seeing tanks roll down the streets would be an arousing sight to witness, nevertheless, I'm sure the Catalans aren't that much of a challenge.

And you just created a lot more problems in already troubled country, congratulations.

I love how certain national governments are predictable. Englishmen solved it through their legendary coolness and pragmatism, Spaniards rather shoots and beats troublemakers, than discuss anything with them.
Last serious rebellion in Britain was 1745.

How many coups and civil wars had Spain ever since?
Clearly you can see that staying cool is a little more efficient...

[The Empire of Pretantia]

If they are forced to abide by its principles, then that are forced to be subject to it.

So they don't have a right to choose their own leaders, they must choose a leader based on the international community's criteria.

But hey,I guess I'm not describing "true" self determination, because you're unable to see the this concept to its logical conclusion.

Not killing gay people is not a bad thing because it says it is on a piece of paper. It is on that piece of paper because it is a bad thing.

Didn't say anything about killing them.

They can choose whatever leader they like. What they can't do is commit human rights abuses. This really isn't hard. I'm for self-determination because it is democratic and there is no good reason to oppose it. I'm opposed to having governments ban religions or homosexuality, even if they want to, because they are human rights abuses.

You continue to claim to be for self determination despite including multiple exceptions.

Is breaking free from Spain a human rights abuse?

I never argued that.

But anyway, you're all for self-determination when it suits you.

I'm for self determination? That's funny coming from the guy arguing for self determination while also arguing voting for positions you don't like isn't self determination.

[Trumptonium]

Indeed seeing tanks roll down the streets would be an arousing sight to witness, nevertheless, I'm sure the Catalans aren't that much of a challenge.

Somehow I think the international community and Spanish society in general would be rather miffed about that.

'international community' is composed of a few more outlets/institutions/people than MSNBC and DW

Rajoy will be brutally defeated and be the face of betrayal if he lets down the Spanish people tonight. It gives Abascal a near guarantee to be the next Spanish PM.

[Socialist Czechia]

Mossos clearly dissapprove.

1:0 for separatists in this moment

yeah, beating civilians is bad, m'kay?

protecting and serving