Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Except they weren't being pushed. There was no reason for Catalans to want independence in the first place!

See that's a different argument, and one I might agree with. They'd be kind of stupid to leave rather than demanding more autonomy. But saying "You can leave if you want, but you probably shouldn't" is quite different from "You can never leave because why would ever want to don't be stupid stay with us *whallops with baton*". Whether or not they should want to leave, if they do want to and are not permitted to, there will be pushback.

Precisely. Hell, before this repression I was firmly in the camp of “Catalonia is better off in Spain” for a host of reasons.

But there is a difference of night and day between saying that someone shouldn’t vote for option A, and saying they cannot vote for option A. Or, even worse, telling someone they cannot vote at all.

[Vassenor]

And I guess women who go out at night in short skirts deserve to be raped.

Obviously not and that's a completely different circumstance entirely as well you know.

I dunno, they're both cases of "it's their own fault they're being subjected to violence".

[Ellarine]

I dunno, they're both cases of "it's their own fault they're being subjected to violence".

Except in the case of Catalonia, it IS their own fault. Why should they be the only criminals that get away with breaking the law?

[Zottistan]

They are being oppressed. Through the use of violence, the Spanish government is denying them the right to have their say on this question. This cracking heads option they took is baffling. They should have engaged the people on it and persuaded them of the benefits of the status quo, a la the UK government's approach to the Scottish independence referendum. This idea that we will deny you your right to have your say based on the law is the fundamentally undemocratic approach.

And yet it's one that most countries follow, as most countries have provisions in their constitutions that make it illegal for subdivisions to secede. Guess most of the world is undemocratic too huh? Oh please, Catalans wouldn't know oppression if it hit them in the face! If Catalonia didn't break the law, this wouldn't happen. Simple as. Catalonia is entirely to blame, not Madrid.

You know Mussolini was a big fan of the whole "fuck you, obey the law" school of political theory.

So the Italians strung him up on meathooks from a streetlight and took turns spitting on his corpse.

[Chestaan]

Me breaking up with my girlfriend would effect both parties, just as Catalonia seceding would. Democracy is not necessarily equivalent to tyranny by majority, which is the only way I can describe any polity or organization that enforces membership.[...]

Democracy is the will of the people. Not some people, all of the people. I suppose that they'll have to deal with it — the tyranny of the majority usually comes hand in hand with democracy.

[...]Well the Catalonians, obviously.

Oh, well, in that case. If they vote for independence, and Spain ultimately decides, "nah, fuck off", what then? Revolution? Good luck with that, a bunch of rebels fighting a professional army in a land said professional army probably knows just as well as you.

Spain would already have lost the war before it started. I'm sure Catalans are already turning against Spain because of their heavy handed tactics. The news media of the world is showing pictures of peaceful protestors getting battered and shot at with rubber bullets. How long do you think the international community, or indeed Spain's own citizens will back a repressive war against Catalonia?

[Greater Carloso]

No, I can't say I agree with Catalonia becoming an independent country at the moment - the Catalonian government has shown flagrant disregard for the Spanish legal institutions. If a legal referendum is held in future and it has the backing of a majority of Catalonian people then sure, I think it's justified that they become an independent country/seek greater autonomy.

[Bananaistan]

There's no news here. We already know that most of the world is undemocratic too. A piece of paper does not, IMO, overrule a people's right to self determination.

"Right to self determination" is also a piece of paper, shoved into some charter somewhere. What makes that piece of paper more important?

Rights don't exist merely because someone once wrote them down. Laws do.

[Chestaan]

I dunno, they're both cases of "it's their own fault they're being subjected to violence".

Except in the case of Catalonia, it IS their own fault. Why should they be the only criminals that get away with breaking the law?

Peaceful protestors are being brutally put down. You may not agree with the referendum, but there is a right way to go about things rather than going full-scale attacking protestors.

[Zottistan]

Me breaking up with my girlfriend would effect both parties, just as Catalonia seceding would. Democracy is not necessarily equivalent to tyranny by majority, which is the only way I can describe any polity or organization that enforces membership.[...]

Democracy is the will of the people. Not some people, all of the people. I suppose that they'll have to deal with it — the tyranny of the majority usually comes hand in hand with democracy.

That's weird, because literally no real-world country calling itself a democracy functions that way. Guess they're all just wrong, so?

[...]Well the Catalonians, obviously.

Oh, well, in that case. If they vote for independence, and Spain ultimately decides, "nah, fuck off", what then? Revolution? Good luck with that, a bunch of rebels fighting a professional army in a land said professional army probably knows just as well as you.

That's exactly the thing. If the Catalonians want independence, make an obviously legitimate if not strictly legal vote for it, and are still not granted it, bloodshed will follow. Best case scenario is a prolonged terrorist campaign, like the Troubles, worst case is an all-out civil war.

[Chestaan]

See that's a different argument, and one I might agree with. They'd be kind of stupid to leave rather than demanding more autonomy. But saying "You can leave if you want, but you probably shouldn't" is quite different from "You can never leave because why would ever want to don't be stupid stay with us *whallops with baton*". Whether or not they should want to leave, if they do want to and are not permitted to, there will be pushback.

Precisely. Hell, before this repression I was firmly in the camp of “Catalonia is better off in Spain” for a host of reasons.

But there is a difference of night and day between saying that someone shouldn’t vote for option A, and saying they cannot vote for option A. Or, even worse, telling someone they cannot vote at all.

And worse again, when citizens peacefully protest being told they cannot vote and are violently put down by police.

[Aellex]

Spain would already have lost the war before it started. I'm sure Catalans are already turning against Spain because of their heavy handed tactics. The news media of the world is showing pictures of peaceful protestors getting battered and shot at with rubber bullets. How long do you think the international community, or indeed Spain's own citizens will back a repressive war against Catalonia?

Most likely for longer than the one and a half day it would last.
And I dunno how Anglo medias cover it but the French ones are overwhelmingly in support of our Spanish friends.

[Ellarine]

You know Mussolini was a big fan of the whole "fuck you, obey the law" school of political theory.

So the Italians strung him up on meathooks from a streetlight and took turns spitting on his corpse.

Except Mussolini was a tyrant, Spain is just trying to keep its country together.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Then what would you say to the fact that when I vote in my local election people from a mile away across a river don’t get to vote, despite the fact that they are part of the same polity as I? Clearly they should also get to vote, because the political decisions made at my local level effect their lives.[...]

I'd say they can get fucked. The relationship between your local polity and theirs is similar to that of countries in this regard — not to mention such a thing would not effect every polity in Spain, or wherever this hypothetical is set. The same can not be said for something like Catalonia and Spain — where Spain is the country, and Catalonia is merely a region — this will effect every Spanish man, woman and child in Spain, they should have a say.

My point is that democracy always inherently is primarily concerned with voters in a particular geographical area. It is asinine to insist that all Spain be allowed to vote in a referendum on a region leaving their nation; by such logic French people should have been allowed to vote on Brexit, which obviously was not the case.

On such big issues, the decision has always been on Spain. France and the U.K. are not the same country, this comparison is beyond shitty.

[The Land of the Ephyral]

No.

[Zottistan]

You know Mussolini was a big fan of the whole "fuck you, obey the law" school of political theory.

So the Italians strung him up on meathooks from a streetlight and took turns spitting on his corpse.

Except Mussolini was a tyrant, Spain is just trying to keep its country together.

Through forceful, heavy handed tyranny, apparently.

[Chestaan]

Spain would already have lost the war before it started. I'm sure Catalans are already turning against Spain because of their heavy handed tactics. The news media of the world is showing pictures of peaceful protestors getting battered and shot at with rubber bullets. How long do you think the international community, or indeed Spain's own citizens will back a repressive war against Catalonia?

Most likely for longer than the one and a half day it would last.
And I dunno how Anglo medias cover it but the French ones are overwhelmingly in support of our Spanish friends.

Firstly, it would last longer than that. Have you ever heard of ETA? Sky News has been interviewing protestors and has clearly shown peaceful protestors being attacked by police. In any case, what with France's culture of protest, I'm sure many people there will agree that putting down peaceful protestors with violence is generally not a good thing.

[Dooom35796821595]

No, I can't say I agree with Catalonia becoming an independent country at the moment - the Catalonian government has shown flagrant disregard for the Spanish legal institutions. If a legal referendum is held in future and it has the backing of a majority of Catalonian people then sure, I think it's justified that they become an independent country/seek greater autonomy.

How can they have a legal referendum when Spain reacts with tinpot dictator style repression of democracy?

I think Spain just shot itself in the foot, since now Catalonia can paint Spain as violent thugs oppressing the democratic will of its people.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Unlike Spain, the Soviet Union was an authoritarian shithole.

So? According to Kramania that doesn't matter as "a group of people can't suddenly vote to remove themselves from a country just because they want to"..

And former Soviet countries left for more reasons than that.

Alabama would undoubtedly agree to such legislation, do they not have the right to infringe upon Muslims' rights because it is the will of the people?

See you seem to believe that I am arguing for some strange form of direct democracy. I'm not. I've said that people should be allow to choose their government, not that they should be allowed to oppress whoever they want.

If Alabama wants to be its own nation then they should be allowed. Just like Catalonia, Scotland or Kurdistan. But when they are independent I would expect them to uphold human rights. If not the international community should put sanctions upon them.

There is no inconsistency here, and I'm not quite sure why you think you have created a gotcha moment.

EDIT: But here's one for you. The US wasn't allowed to legally secede from Britain. Therefore, you would condemn the actions of those who waged war to break away from the British Empire?

What if they elect leaders that promise to outlaw Islam and homosexuality? Then what?

If they have a right to self determination, then why most they be subject to a piece of paper with by foreigners?

[Socialist Czechia]

Hundreds wounded. Only waiting for first martyrs to be killed or Mossos shooting Guardia Civil guy brutally beating some old lady.





*Palpatine's voice* Good, good...

[G-Tech Corporation]

Then what would you say to the fact that when I vote in my local election people from a mile away across a river don’t get to vote, despite the fact that they are part of the same polity as I? Clearly they should also get to vote, because the political decisions made at my local level effect their lives.[...]

I'd say they can get fucked. The relationship between your local polity and theirs is similar to that of countries in this regard — not to mention such a thing would not effect every polity in Spain, or wherever this hypothetical is set. The same can not be said for something like Catalonia and Spain — where Spain is the country, and Catalonia is merely a region — this will effect every Spanish man, woman and child in Spain, they should have a say.

My point is that democracy always inherently is primarily concerned with voters in a particular geographical area. It is asinine to insist that all Spain be allowed to vote in a referendum on a region leaving their nation; by such logic French people should have been allowed to vote on Brexit, which obviously was not the case.

On such big issues, the decision has always been on Spain. France and the U.K. are not the same country, this comparison is beyond shitty.

So your argument is that such matters should be decided arbitrarily based on a nebulous sliding scale of impact on the wider population and some geographical delineators but not others? That’s a hard position to support consistently, but I respect the balls it takes to throw out such an objectively boneless standpoint.

The EU is objectively a larger (by scale and tier) polity heavily impacted by the decision of the UK to leave. Spain is objectively a larger (by scale and tier) polity that would be heavily impacted by the decision of Catalonia to leave. Why does the larger polity get to impose its will on the smaller in one case, but not the other?

[Chestaan]

So? According to Kramania that doesn't matter as "a group of people can't suddenly vote to remove themselves from a country just because they want to"..

And former Soviet countries left for more reasons than that.

See you seem to believe that I am arguing for some strange form of direct democracy. I'm not. I've said that people should be allow to choose their government, not that they should be allowed to oppress whoever they want.

If Alabama wants to be its own nation then they should be allowed. Just like Catalonia, Scotland or Kurdistan. But when they are independent I would expect them to uphold human rights. If not the international community should put sanctions upon them.

There is no inconsistency here, and I'm not quite sure why you think you have created a gotcha moment.

EDIT: But here's one for you. The US wasn't allowed to legally secede from Britain. Therefore, you would condemn the actions of those who waged war to break away from the British Empire?

What if they elect leaders that promise to outlaw Islam and homosexuality? Then what?

The same way I believe Saudi Arabia should be dealt with, sanctions and lots of them.

I noticed you haven't answered the question I edited in.

EDIT: They wouldn't be subject to a piece of paper written by foreigners?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Except Mussolini was a tyrant, Spain is just trying to keep its country together.

Through forceful, heavy handed tyranny, apparently.

Tyranny is only bad when history labels you a tyrant, remember kids. Repression: a-okay until you lose the election.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

And former Soviet countries left for more reasons than that.


What if they elect leaders that promise to outlaw Islam and homosexuality? Then what?

The same way I believe Saudi Arabia should be dealt with, sanctions and lots of them.

>Being this against self determination

I noticed you haven't answered the question I edited in.

My answer is the Declaration of Independence, a piece of paper which outlines the colonies' grievances.

[Zottistan]

Hundreds wounded. Only waiting for first martyrs to be killed or Mossos shooting Guardia Civil guy brutally beating some old lady.





*Palpatine's voice* Good, good...

I'm less shocked by how oppressive the Spanish are being than I am by how completely fucking dense they're being.

[Socialist Czechia]

Yeeees.

Mossos disobeying orders, siding with voters