Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

"We sacked a city on the other side of the sea from Rome so we're the successors of Rome now."

Can Alabama outlaw Islam and homosexuality now?

If Alabama wants to secede I personally am fine with that. But if they try to ban religions or homosexuality, then I would expect other nations to place heavy sanctions on them.

In any case, I'm not sure how wanting to have the right to choose your government is somehow equal to being an Islamophobic bigot.

Alabama would undoubtedly agree to such legislation, do they not have the right to infringe upon Muslims' rights because it is the will of the people?

Guess self determination doesn't matter when it involves views you don't like

More like that no amount of self-determination lets people oppress others. That's tyranny by majority, and tyranny is bad.

Fucking oppressing poor Alabama right here.

[Bananaistan]

Democracy doesn't mean you get to do what you want, you still have to follow the rules. If the Catalans were being oppressed, maybe I'd understand their so-called "plight". However, all I see with Spain is one region of a country getting treated better than all the others but said region acting like they are oppressed just because they think they're better than everyone else and so must get even more preferential treatment. It's the same thing as with Scotland. Such separatism is incredibly toxic and must be destroyed, hard.

They are being oppressed. Through the use of violence, the Spanish government is denying them the right to have their say on this question. This cracking heads option they took is baffling. They should have engaged the people on it and persuaded them of the benefits of the status quo, a la the UK government's approach to the Scottish independence referendum. This idea that we will deny you your right to have your say based on the law is the fundamentally undemocratic approach.

[G-Tech Corporation]

No, because they'd be trying to take away certain inalienable rights that those people have, the freedom to do whatever they want so long they don't bother nobody.

Come on, self-determination and freedom of religion, the right of life, liberty, and propery/pursuit of happiness, you're arguing against basic Enlightenment ideals for which all Western governments are grounded.

Guess self determination doesn't matter when it involves views you don't like.

False analogy is false.

Catalonia is holding a referendum. Source me, if you will, the plebiscite on Southern independence.

Guess a majority of Southerners didn't want to secede then, which is why a majority of CS Army soldiers were conscripted.

Sure, the South attempted secession to preserve slavery, but the common people at Large didn't care for the North either.

Backfilling a speculative narrative to support a personal opinion is hilarious, but poor scholarship. Fundamentally, history doesn’t tell us whether independence was supported by a majority of the South’s population, a plurality, or any other combination of opinions you may care to cite. Thus saying there was popular will for or against secession is speculation, and hardly comparable to a modern day verifiable plebiscite on the issue, which the Catalonian government absolutely could have conducted.

[Kramania]

They can vote for things that are legal. They can't vote for whatever the fuck they want just because "We want it".


Because it's illegal.

Just no.

The right to self-determination supersedes a government’s right to territorial integrity, as was so bloodily proved in the last century. No government, great or small, possesses the right to bind an unwilling populace to her rule, no matter how many governments love to include such provisios in their legal framework.

Uh, no, it doesn't. A group of people can't suddenly vote to remove themselves from a country just because they want to. That's not how it's ever worked and that's not how it ever will work. These destroyers of countries can fuck off.

[Bananaistan]

Just no.

The right to self-determination supersedes a government’s right to territorial integrity, as was so bloodily proved in the last century. No government, great or small, possesses the right to bind an unwilling populace to her rule, no matter how many governments love to include such provisios in their legal framework.

Uh, no, it doesn't. A group of people can't suddenly vote to remove themselves from a country just because they want to. That's not how it's ever worked and that's not how it ever will work. These destroyers of countries can fuck off.

I can only assume that you also opposed the breaking up of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and the USSR? All these people should have sat down and shut up instead of breaking up "their" countries.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Doesn't matter. That'd be like saying I need my girlfriend's permission to break up with her.[...]

This is a false equivalence. This will effect the Spanish as a whole; your breaking up with your girlfriend wouldn't — not to mention that a nationstate is another matter entirely. You can't justifiably have one group of people secede without the input of the other members; otherwise it isn't the decision of a democracy, which is what Spain is.

[...]The Spanish have no right to Catalonia if the Catalonians do not willingly give it to them.

According to who?

Are you saying me breaking up with my girlfriend doesn’t effect her?

Hell, if we’re consulting all effected stakeholders for political decisions now, we should probably let the French vote in United States elections now. They get effected by who the US makes president, after all.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Uh, no, it doesn't. A group of people can't suddenly vote to remove themselves from a country just because they want to. That's not how it's ever worked and that's not how it ever will work. These destroyers of countries can fuck off.

I can only assume that you also opposed the breaking up of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and the USSR? All these people should have sat down and shut up instead of breaking up "their" countries.

Unlike Spain, the Soviet Union was an authoritarian shithole.

[Zottistan]

Democracy doesn't mean you get to do what you want, you still have to follow the rules. If the Catalans were being oppressed, maybe I'd understand their so-called "plight". However, all I see with Spain is one region of a country getting treated better than all the others but said region acting like they are oppressed just because they think they're better than everyone else and so must get even more preferential treatment. It's the same thing as with Scotland. Such separatism is incredibly toxic and must be destroyed, hard.

You have to follow the rules as long as you're in a weaker position than the people enforcing them. There's only so far you can push people before they push back.

[Balloch]

As a Scot who supports independence for Scotland, I would throw my support behind Catalonia. That being said, if the Catalans vote for independence, they have every right to break away from Spain because democracy matters more than the PP or Mariano Rajoy's dreams at night. Previously I was lukewarm on independence, but after seeing the repression today I can't stand by and say that they are protecting their constitution. It is time to safeguard European democracy and allow the Catalans to vote

[Ellarine]

They are being oppressed. Through the use of violence, the Spanish government is denying them the right to have their say on this question. This cracking heads option they took is baffling. They should have engaged the people on it and persuaded them of the benefits of the status quo, a la the UK government's approach to the Scottish independence referendum. This idea that we will deny you your right to have your say based on the law is the fundamentally undemocratic approach.

And yet it's one that most countries follow, as most countries have provisions in their constitutions that make it illegal for subdivisions to secede. Guess most of the world is undemocratic too huh? Oh please, Catalans wouldn't know oppression if it hit them in the face! If Catalonia didn't break the law, this wouldn't happen. Simple as. Catalonia is entirely to blame, not Madrid.

[Trumptonium]

Democracy doesn't mean you get to do what you want, you still have to follow the rules. If the Catalans were being oppressed, maybe I'd understand their so-called "plight". However, all I see with Spain is one region of a country getting treated better than all the others but said region acting like they are oppressed just because they think they're better than everyone else and so must get even more preferential treatment. It's the same thing as with Scotland. Such separatism is incredibly toxic and must be destroyed, hard.

They are being oppressed. Through the use of violence, the Spanish government is denying them the right to have their say on this question.

They don't have this right. Who gave them this right?

[Ellarine]

You have to follow the rules as long as you're in a weaker position than the people enforcing them. There's only so far you can push people before they push back.

Except they weren't being pushed. There was no reason for Catalans to want independence in the first place!

[Zottistan]

Doesn't matter. That'd be like saying I need my girlfriend's permission to break up with her.[...]

This is a false equivalence. This will effect the Spanish as a whole; your breaking up with your girlfriend wouldn't — not to mention that a nationstate is another matter entirely. You can't justifiably have one group of people secede without the input of the other members; otherwise it isn't the decision of a democracy, which is what Spain is.

Me breaking up with my girlfriend would effect both parties, just as Catalonia seceding would. Democracy is not necessarily equivalent to tyranny by majority, which is the only way I can describe any polity or organization that enforces membership.

[...]The Spanish have no right to Catalonia if the Catalonians do not willingly give it to them.

According to who?[/quote]
Well the Catalonians, obviously.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Are you saying me breaking up with my girlfriend doesn’t effect her?[...]

The effects of Catalan Independence would be far greater than your girlfriend — let's not overestate the importantance of an individual when comparing her to a nationstate.

[...]Hell, if we’re consulting all effected stakeholders for political decisions now, we should probably let the French vote in United States elections now. They get effected by who the US makes president, after all.

I was obviously referring to the Spanish people, mate. Lets not be fuckheads about this. Spain is a democracy, and as such, in decisions that may affect Spain as a whole, all Spanish people should get a say in it.

[G-Tech Corporation]

You have to follow the rules as long as you're in a weaker position than the people enforcing them. There's only so far you can push people before they push back.

Except they weren't being pushed. There was no reason for Catalans to want independence in the first place!

Exactly why no Catalonians want independence, right? It’s all just fake news, paid protestors on the streets trying destroy the Spanish nation.

[Zottistan]

You have to follow the rules as long as you're in a weaker position than the people enforcing them. There's only so far you can push people before they push back.

Except they weren't being pushed. There was no reason for Catalans to want independence in the first place!

See that's a different argument, and one I might agree with. They'd be kind of stupid to leave rather than demanding more autonomy. But saying "You can leave if you want, but you probably shouldn't" is quite different from "You can never leave because why would ever want to don't be stupid stay with us *whallops with baton*". Whether or not they should want to leave, if they do want to and are not permitted to, there will be pushback.

[Aboim]

Can Alabama outlaw Islam and homosexuality now?

No.

Can Alabama ban Islam and homosexuality now please?

No in Spanish.

[Pasong Tirad]

So, we're back in the 19th century with Spain once again repressing the rights of different peoples to self-determination. I'm sure history has proven that Spain has always been victorious in making sure people are not free.

Wait...

[Vassenor]

They are being oppressed. Through the use of violence, the Spanish government is denying them the right to have their say on this question. This cracking heads option they took is baffling. They should have engaged the people on it and persuaded them of the benefits of the status quo, a la the UK government's approach to the Scottish independence referendum. This idea that we will deny you your right to have your say based on the law is the fundamentally undemocratic approach.

And yet it's one that most countries follow, as most countries have provisions in their constitutions that make it illegal for subdivisions to secede. Guess most of the world is undemocratic too huh? Oh please, Catalans wouldn't know oppression if it hit them in the face! If Catalonia didn't break the law, this wouldn't happen. Simple as. Catalonia is entirely to blame, not Madrid.

And I guess women who go out at night in short skirts deserve to be raped.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Are you saying me breaking up with my girlfriend doesn’t effect her?[...]

The effects of Catalan Independence would be far greater than your girlfriend — let's not overestate the importantance of an individual when comparing her to a nationstate.

[...]Hell, if we’re consulting all effected stakeholders for political decisions now, we should probably let the French vote in United States elections now. They get effected by who the US makes president, after all.

I was obviously referring to the Spanish people, mate. Lets not be fuckheads about this. Spain is a democracy, and as such, in decisions that may affect Spain as a whole, all Spanish people should get a say in it.

Then what would you say to the fact that when I vote in my local election people from a mile away across a river don’t get to vote, despite the fact that they are part of the same polity as I? Clearly they should also get to vote, because the political decisions made at my local level effect their lives.

My point is that democracy always inherently is primarily concerned with voters in a particular geographical area. It is asinine to insist that all Spain be allowed to vote in a referendum on a region leaving their nation; by such logic French people should have been allowed to vote on Brexit, which obviously was not the case.

[Bananaistan]

I can only assume that you also opposed the breaking up of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and the USSR? All these people should have sat down and shut up instead of breaking up "their" countries.

Unlike Spain, the Soviet Union was an authoritarian shithole.

So? According to Kramania that doesn't matter as "a group of people can't suddenly vote to remove themselves from a country just because they want to".

They are being oppressed. Through the use of violence, the Spanish government is denying them the right to have their say on this question. This cracking heads option they took is baffling. They should have engaged the people on it and persuaded them of the benefits of the status quo, a la the UK government's approach to the Scottish independence referendum. This idea that we will deny you your right to have your say based on the law is the fundamentally undemocratic approach.

And yet it's one that most countries follow, as most countries have provisions in their constitutions that make it illegal for subdivisions to secede. Guess most of the world is undemocratic too huh? Oh please, Catalans wouldn't know oppression if it hit them in the face! If Catalonia didn't break the law, this wouldn't happen. Simple as. Catalonia is entirely to blame, not Madrid.

There's no news here. We already know that most of the world is undemocratic too. A piece of paper does not, IMO, overrule a people's right to self determination.

[Ellarine]

And I guess women who go out at night in short skirts deserve to be raped.

Obviously not and that's a completely different circumstance entirely as well you know.

Exactly why no Catalonians want independence, right? It’s all just fake news, paid protestors on the streets trying destroy the Spanish nation.

Literally the only reason I've seen is "we're Catalan so independence". That is it, that is literally it.

[Chestaan]

If Alabama wants to secede I personally am fine with that. But if they try to ban religions or homosexuality, then I would expect other nations to place heavy sanctions on them.

In any case, I'm not sure how wanting to have the right to choose your government is somehow equal to being an Islamophobic bigot.

Alabama would undoubtedly agree to such legislation, do they not have the right to infringe upon Muslims' rights because it is the will of the people?

See you seem to believe that I am arguing for some strange form of direct democracy. I'm not. I've said that people should be allow to choose their government, not that they should be allowed to oppress whoever they want.

If Alabama wants to be its own nation then they should be allowed. Just like Catalonia, Scotland or Kurdistan. But when they are independent I would expect them to uphold human rights. If not the international community should put sanctions upon them.

There is no inconsistency here, and I'm not quite sure why you think you have created a gotcha moment.

EDIT: But here's one for you. The US wasn't allowed to legally secede from Britain. Therefore, you would condemn the actions of those who waged war to break away from the British Empire?

[Ellarine]

There's no news here. We already know that most of the world is undemocratic too. A piece of paper does not, IMO, overrule a people's right to self determination.

"Right to self determination" is also a piece of paper, shoved into some charter somewhere. What makes that piece of paper more important?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Me breaking up with my girlfriend would effect both parties, just as Catalonia seceding would. Democracy is not necessarily equivalent to tyranny by majority, which is the only way I can describe any polity or organization that enforces membership.[...]

Democracy is the will of the people. Not some people, all of the people. I suppose that they'll have to deal with it — the tyranny of the majority usually comes hand in hand with democracy.

[...]Well the Catalonians, obviously.

Oh, well, in that case. If they vote for independence, and Spain ultimately decides, "nah, fuck off", what then? Revolution? Good luck with that, a bunch of rebels fighting a professional army in a land said professional army probably knows just as well as you.