Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Zottistan]

Laws are given legitimacy through a complex and usually invisible power tension between the government and the people they represent. The law, properly implemented, is basically the people imposing the people's will on the people. Detachment of legal validity from popular will leads to tyranny, revolution and massacre.

No, governments MAKE laws, people follow them. That's how it works. People do NOT have the right to change laws.

Have you ever heard of the French Revolution? Or the American War of Independence.

People who get into positions of power with the attitude you're espousing tend to be fairly unpopular, and when the people have had enough of their tyrannical bullshit they tend to lose their heads.

[G-Tech Corporation]

If the Spanish are fine with renouncing all pretensions of being a popular democracy and instead rebrand themselves as a forceful empire again then sure, go for it.

Somehow I don't see that happening, though. If they've got the smug pretensions to democratic idealism that the west in general seems to have nowadays, they should either act on those pretensions or be shamefully called out for their two-faced cowardice and failure to do so.

Catalans already have the right to vote despite being an autonomous community. But secession and the fracturing of the Spanish state are another matter entirely.

TIL Catalans are allowed to vote, until they vote for the wrong thing.

Not even vote the wrong way mind you. Spain isn’t even allowing a vote on the topic to take place, despite the very good chance at present that the vote will be unrepresentative or negative.

[Socialist Nordia]

This is outrageous.

The Spanish police are shooting rubber bullets at voters, and over 38 have been injured.

Edit: This source says hundreds injured.

[Bananaistan]

Heh. Tyrants the world over and throughout history have pointed at laws to justify oppression.

The Catalans are so oppressed! Look! They're not allowed to leave Spain! Spain is as bad as the Union of the Civil War!

Comparisons with events 150 years ago are hardly relevant and it's not yet a comparable situation in Catalonia.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

>Russia
>Frozen shithole full of Barbarians whose MO consists of aping Western Europeans
>Only married some Byzantine slut
>Successor to Rome

Historiography argues... “sorta?”

Call back when Rome is in Russia.

"We sacked a city on the other side of the sea from Rome so we're the successors of Rome now."

Can Alabama outlaw Islam and homosexuality now?

Sure, if they had a plebiscite on the issue that had a turnout and result commensurate with such a desire. Ultimately all people should be allowed to determine how they live. In the case of Alabama the waters are muddied by the fact that they are subservient to the laws of a greater polity, and generally quite satisfied with remaining part of that greater polity, thereby expressing a common mandate for the implementation of the laws with that polity which run contrary to your mentioned scenario.

But if a direct plebiscite on such matters established a favorable result, I would happily argue that such a population still retains the right to determine how they should live, politically and socially.

Literally against the principles of republicanism.

[Zottistan]

If the Spanish are fine with renouncing all pretensions of being a popular democracy and instead rebrand themselves as a forceful empire again then sure, go for it.

Somehow I don't see that happening, though. If they've got the smug pretensions to democratic idealism that the west in general seems to have nowadays, they should either act on those pretensions or be shamefully called out for their two-faced cowardice and failure to do so.

If it were democratic, I'd think that all of Spain would vote on the issue, considering this decision will affect Spain nationwide.

Doesn't matter. That'd be like saying I need my girlfriend's permission to break up with her. The Spanish have no right to Catalonia if the Catalonians do not willingly give it to them.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Heh. Tyrants the world over and throughout history have pointed at laws to justify oppression.

The Catalans are so oppressed! Look! They're not allowed to leave Spain! Spain is as bad as the Union of the Civil War!

False analogy is false.

Catalonia is holding a referendum. Source me, if you will, the plebiscite on Southern independence.

[Valrifell]

Illegal under Spanish national law, sure. But national law does not supercede the right of a population to choose its own leaders and government, for such a right is bound up in the state of being human, a far more fundamental circumstance than being a citizen of Spain.

The fact that you don’t understand the difference between “let’s vote to go rape people!” and self-determination is telling. One of these things is not like the other.

Can Alabama ban Islam and homosexuality now please?

No, because they'd be trying to take away certain inalienable rights that those people have, the freedom to do whatever they want so long they don't bother nobody.

Come on, self-determination and freedom of religion, the right of life, liberty, and propery/pursuit of happiness, you're arguing against basic Enlightenment ideals for which all Western governments are grounded.

[Zottistan]

This is outrageous.

The Spanish police are shooting rubber bullets at voters, and over 38 have been injured.

The fucking fools have forgotten they're a 21st century European country.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

The Catalans are so oppressed! Look! They're not allowed to leave Spain! Spain is as bad as the Union of the Civil War!

Comparisons with events 150 years ago are hardly relevant and it's not yet a comparable situation in Catalonia.

Assuming we go with the "lost cause" narrative, it's perfectly comparable. X territory wants to secede because "much culture, much self determination".

[Zottistan]

The Catalans are so oppressed! Look! They're not allowed to leave Spain! Spain is as bad as the Union of the Civil War!

False analogy is false.

Catalonia is holding a referendum. Source me, if you will, the plebiscite on Southern independence.

And you know, basically the only reason the south seceded was so they could keep owning black people. Lesser of two evils, etc.

[Zottistan]

Comparisons with events 150 years ago are hardly relevant and it's not yet a comparable situation in Catalonia.

Assuming we go with the "lost cause" narrative, it's perfectly comparable. X territory wants to secede because "much culture, much self determination".

"Gubmint came and took muh slaves away".

[Bananaistan]

Comparisons with events 150 years ago are hardly relevant and it's not yet a comparable situation in Catalonia.

Assuming we go with the "lost cause" narrative, it's perfectly comparable. X territory wants to secede because "much culture, much self determination".

Why would I go with the "lost cause" narrative and why would you assume I would?

As G-Tech said, can you point out the obstructed independence referendum in the American south prior to the American Civil War?

[Kramania]

Catalans already have the right to vote despite being an autonomous community. But secession and the fracturing of the Spanish state are another matter entirely.

TIL Catalans are allowed to vote, until they vote for the wrong thing.

They can vote for things that are legal. They can't vote for whatever the fuck they want just because "We want it".

Not even vote the wrong way mind you. Spain isn’t even allowing a vote on the topic to take place, despite the very good chance at present that the vote will be unrepresentative or negative.

Because it's illegal.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Historiography argues... “sorta?”

Call back when Rome is in Russia.

Sure, if they had a plebiscite on the issue that had a turnout and result commensurate with such a desire. Ultimately all people should be allowed to determine how they live. In the case of Alabama the waters are muddied by the fact that they are subservient to the laws of a greater polity, and generally quite satisfied with remaining part of that greater polity, thereby expressing a common mandate for the implementation of the laws with that polity which run contrary to your mentioned scenario.

But if a direct plebiscite on such matters established a favorable result, I would happily argue that such a population still retains the right to determine how they should live, politically and socially.

Literally against the principles of republicanism.

Good thing I happily endorse the supremacy of independent voters over the greater republic where such matters directly clash. Though, of course, I would argue that such a direct refutation of the national agenda would necessarily be need to assess within the constraints of Alabama’s desire to remain within the Union. Ultimately states are beholden to the federal will as consenting members of that federal will.

You’ll note, in the case of Catalonia, the vote is not about some esoteric social issue, but rather whether or not their state shall continue to consent to be part of that federal will.

[Ellarine]

Democracy doesn't mean you get to do what you want, you still have to follow the rules. If the Catalans were being oppressed, maybe I'd understand their so-called "plight". However, all I see with Spain is one region of a country getting treated better than all the others but said region acting like they are oppressed just because they think they're better than everyone else and so must get even more preferential treatment. It's the same thing as with Scotland. Such separatism is incredibly toxic and must be destroyed, hard.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Can Alabama ban Islam and homosexuality now please?

No, because they'd be trying to take away certain inalienable rights that those people have, the freedom to do whatever they want so long they don't bother nobody.

Come on, self-determination and freedom of religion, the right of life, liberty, and propery/pursuit of happiness, you're arguing against basic Enlightenment ideals for which all Western governments are grounded.

Guess self determination doesn't matter when it involves views you don't like.

The Catalans are so oppressed! Look! They're not allowed to leave Spain! Spain is as bad as the Union of the Civil War!

False analogy is false.

Catalonia is holding a referendum. Source me, if you will, the plebiscite on Southern independence.

Guess a majority of Southerners didn't want to secede then, which is why a majority of CS Army soldiers were conscripted.

Sure, the South attempted secession to preserve slavery, but the common people at Large didn't care for the North either.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Call back when Rome is in Russia.

Literally against the principles of republicanism.

Good thing I happily endorse the supremacy of independent voters over the greater republic where such matters directly clash. Though, of course, I would argue that such a direct refutation of the national agenda would necessarily be need to assess within the constraints of Alabama’s desire to remain within the Union. Ultimately states are beholden to the federal will as consenting members of that federal will.

You’ll note, in the case of Catalonia, the vote is not about some esoteric social issue, but rather whether or not their state shall continue to consent to be part of that federal will.

Fucking sucks to be them then.

[Chestaan]

Ottomans are the true successors of Rome, infidel.

"We sacked a city on the other side of the sea from Rome so we're the successors of Rome now."

So you would argue that a piece of paper trumps a popular mandate for self-determination?

I’m not sure you understand how the legitimacy of a state works in the modern day, friendo.

The “integrity of its state” only exists insofar as the people of that state consent to be governed; if it is imposed on a population that no longer consents, tyranny exists, not benevolent sovereignty.

Can Alabama outlaw Islam and homosexuality now?

If Alabama wants to secede I personally am fine with that. But if they try to ban religions or homosexuality, then I would expect other nations to place heavy sanctions on them.

In any case, I'm not sure how wanting to have the right to choose your government is somehow equal to being an Islamophobic bigot.

[G-Tech Corporation]

TIL Catalans are allowed to vote, until they vote for the wrong thing.

They can vote for things that are legal. They can't vote for whatever the fuck they want just because "We want it".

Not even vote the wrong way mind you. Spain isn’t even allowing a vote on the topic to take place, despite the very good chance at present that the vote will be unrepresentative or negative.

Because it's illegal.

Just no.

The right to self-determination supersedes a government’s right to territorial integrity, as was so bloodily proved in the last century. No government, great or small, possesses the right to bind an unwilling populace to her rule, no matter how many governments love to include such provisios in their legal framework.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Assuming we go with the "lost cause" narrative, it's perfectly comparable. X territory wants to secede because "much culture, much self determination".

Why would I go with the "lost cause" narrative and why would you assume I would?

As G-Tech said, can you point out the obstructed independence referendum in the American south prior to the American Civil War?

It was the general will of the People, so it's perfectly relevant.

[Valrifell]

No, because they'd be trying to take away certain inalienable rights that those people have, the freedom to do whatever they want so long they don't bother nobody.

Come on, self-determination and freedom of religion, the right of life, liberty, and propery/pursuit of happiness, you're arguing against basic Enlightenment ideals for which all Western governments are grounded.

Guess self determination doesn't matter when it involves views you don't like

More like that no amount of self-determination lets people oppress others. That's tyranny by majority, and tyranny is bad.

[Ellarine]

The right to self-determination supersedes a government’s right to territorial integrity, as was so bloodily proved in the last century. No government, great or small, possesses the right to bind an unwilling populace to her rule, no matter how many governments love to include such provisios in their legal framework.

Disagree

[Elhazia]

All countries should now introduce sanctions against Spain for obstructing the democratic process. In a democracy, no court, no constitution, no law can be above the will of the people.
And I want Spain to lose Basque and Galicia too.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Doesn't matter. That'd be like saying I need my girlfriend's permission to break up with her.[...]

This is a false equivalence. This will effect the Spanish as a whole; your breaking up with your girlfriend wouldn't — not to mention that a nationstate is another matter entirely. You can't justifiably have one group of people secede without the input of the other members; otherwise it isn't the decision of a democracy, which is what Spain is.

[...]The Spanish have no right to Catalonia if the Catalonians do not willingly give it to them.

According to who?