Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Kramania]

See, this is why I despise separatists, look at the trouble and chaos they've caused! Madrid shouldn't had to have gone violent but the Catalans forced their hand. I hope the criminals response for all this in the Catalan government are punished severely for their crimes against Spain and for all the chaos they've caused.

You mean the trouble and chaos the central government has caused by trying to suppress an expression of popular will? Yeah, protip: any time you send men in masks to stop civilians with ballot boxes, you should take a hard look at yourself.

The central government is trying to protect the integrity of its state against those who would seek to break it. "Free expression" is meaningless if the end result is chaos.

[Kramania]

See, this is why I despise separatists, look at the trouble and chaos they've caused! Madrid shouldn't had to have gone violent but the Catalans forced their hand. I hope the criminals response for all this in the Catalan government are punished severely for their crimes against Spain and for all the chaos they've caused.

Yeah, damn those separatists, Hispania's only true rulers are the Romans, right?

If only.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Yeah, damn those separatists, Hispania's only true rulers are the Romans, right?

Roma Invicta, citizen.

Iberia is rightful Russian clay, for she bears the mantle of the Third Roman Empire.

>Russia
>Frozen shithole full of Barbarians whose MO consists of aping Western Europeans
>Only married some Byzantine slut
>Successor to Rome

[Ellarine]

You mean the trouble and chaos the central government has caused by trying to suppress an expression of popular will? Yeah, protip: any time you send men in masks to stop civilians with ballot boxes, you should take a hard look at yourself.

It.is.illegal! How are people getting confused by this? By that logic, can people break any law if enough want to? Can people go out killing if enough want to? Or raping or thieving or whatever it is they want? Would any of those suddenly become acceptable to do if it was the "popular will" that they should be? I think you'll find that it isn't the popular will because most didn't want an illegal referendum. I disagree, if you want to actively defy the law, be prepared to be stopped.

[Zottistan]

Yeah, damn those separatists, Hispania's only true rulers are the Romans, right?

Roma Invicta, citizen.

Iberia is rightful Russian clay, for she bears the mantle of the Third Roman Empire.

Ottomans are the true successors of Rome, infidel.

You mean the trouble and chaos the central government has caused by trying to suppress an expression of popular will? Yeah, protip: any time you send men in masks to stop civilians with ballot boxes, you should take a hard look at yourself.

The central government is trying to protect the integrity of its state against those who would seek to break it. "Free expression" is meaningless if the end result is chaos.

If the Catalans vote for independence, the Spanish are no longer defending the integrity of their state by denying it to them. They're forcefully imposing their will on a people they no longer represent. They'd basically be an empire putting down the independence of a territory.

I wonder if Spain would still have any right to call itself Spain if Catalonia leaves.

[Shenli]

Catalonia must become independant ! Every people is in right to ask for independence, as the human rights declarations says. And Spain is in my opinion, not really democratic these times. Catalonia deserves independence ! (and that will destroy one of our neighbor's economy, at last...)

[G-Tech Corporation]

You mean the trouble and chaos the central government has caused by trying to suppress an expression of popular will? Yeah, protip: any time you send men in masks to stop civilians with ballot boxes, you should take a hard look at yourself.

The central government is trying to protect the integrity of its state against those who would seek to break it. "Free expression" is meaningless if the end result is chaos.

So you would argue that a piece of paper trumps a popular mandate for self-determination?

I’m not sure you understand how the legitimacy of a state works in the modern day, friendo.

The “integrity of its state” only exists insofar as the people of that state consent to be governed; if it is imposed on a population that no longer consents, tyranny exists, not benevolent sovereignty.

[Minoa]

Spain can still call itself Spain even without Catalonia. I feel really sad about the violence (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032), but could win more support for independence, which I do not mind happening.

[Kramania]

Roma Invicta, citizen.

Iberia is rightful Russian clay, for she bears the mantle of the Third Roman Empire.

Ottomans are the true successors of Rome, infidel.

The central government is trying to protect the integrity of its state against those who would seek to break it. "Free expression" is meaningless if the end result is chaos.

If the Catalans vote for independence, the Spanish are no longer defending the integrity of their state by denying it to them. They're forcefully imposing their will on a people they no longer represent. They'd basically be an empire putting down the independence of a territory.

I wonder if Spain would still have any right to call itself Spain if Catalonia leaves.

They've no claim to legitimacy and their vote is illegal. They should be suppressed. Doesn't much matter if they want independence or not.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Roma Invicta, citizen.

Iberia is rightful Russian clay, for she bears the mantle of the Third Roman Empire.

Ottomans are the true successors of Rome, infidel.

"We sacked a city on the other side of the sea from Rome so we're the successors of Rome now."

The central government is trying to protect the integrity of its state against those who would seek to break it. "Free expression" is meaningless if the end result is chaos.

So you would argue that a piece of paper trumps a popular mandate for self-determination?

I’m not sure you understand how the legitimacy of a state works in the modern day, friendo.

The “integrity of its state” only exists insofar as the people of that state consent to be governed; if it is imposed on a population that no longer consents, tyranny exists, not benevolent sovereignty.

Can Alabama outlaw Islam and homosexuality now?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Ottomans are the true successors of Rome, infidel.


If the Catalans vote for independence, the Spanish are no longer defending the integrity of their state by denying it to them. They're forcefully imposing their will on a people they no longer represent. They'd basically be an empire putting down the independence of a territory.

I wonder if Spain would still have any right to call itself Spain if Catalonia leaves.

They've no claim to legitimacy and their vote is illegal. They should be suppressed. Doesn't much matter if they want independence or not.

It would've been better if Spain let it happen and just continued saying,"No," but we've burned that bridge.

[Zottistan]

You mean the trouble and chaos the central government has caused by trying to suppress an expression of popular will? Yeah, protip: any time you send men in masks to stop civilians with ballot boxes, you should take a hard look at yourself.

It.is.illegal! How are people getting confused by this? By that logic, can people break any law if enough want to? Can people go out killing if enough want to? Or raping or thieving or whatever it is they want? Would any of those suddenly become acceptable to do if it was the "popular will" that they should be? I think you'll find that it isn't the popular will because most didn't want an illegal referendum. I disagree, if you want to actively defy the law, be prepared to be stopped.

Laws are given legitimacy through a complex and usually invisible power tension between the government and the people they represent. The law, properly implemented, is basically the people imposing the people's will on the people. Detachment of legal validity from popular will leads to tyranny, revolution and massacre.

[G-Tech Corporation]

You mean the trouble and chaos the central government has caused by trying to suppress an expression of popular will? Yeah, protip: any time you send men in masks to stop civilians with ballot boxes, you should take a hard look at yourself.

It.is.illegal! How are people getting confused by this? By that logic, can people break any law if enough want to? Can people go out killing if enough want to? Or raping or thieving or whatever it is they want? Would any of those suddenly become acceptable to do if it was the "popular will" that they should be? I think you'll find that it isn't the popular will because most didn't want an illegal referendum. I disagree, if you want to actively defy the law, be prepared to be stopped.

Illegal under Spanish national law, sure. But national law does not supercede the right of a population to choose its own leaders and government, for such a right is bound up in the state of being human, a far more fundamental circumstance than being a citizen of Spain.

The fact that you don’t understand the difference between “let’s vote to go rape people!” and self-determination is telling. One of these things is not like the other.

[Kramania]

The central government is trying to protect the integrity of its state against those who would seek to break it. "Free expression" is meaningless if the end result is chaos.

So you would argue that a piece of paper trumps a popular mandate for self-determination?

I’m not sure you understand how the legitimacy of a state works in the modern day, friendo.

The “integrity of its state” only exists insofar as the people of that state consent to be governed; if it is imposed on a population that no longer consents, tyranny exists, not benevolent sovereignty.

If that piece of paper is a legitimate law passed by the Spanish government (which is elected, by the way) then yeah.

Catalan independence only exists insofar as the people can maintain their own sovereignty. Evidently the Spanish government isn't going to let them secede and will maintain control over the territory by force if necessary, so they're shit out of luck.

Besides, separatist movements such as these have destroyed a great many states. They need to be put down.

[Kramania]

It.is.illegal! How are people getting confused by this? By that logic, can people break any law if enough want to? Can people go out killing if enough want to? Or raping or thieving or whatever it is they want? Would any of those suddenly become acceptable to do if it was the "popular will" that they should be? I think you'll find that it isn't the popular will because most didn't want an illegal referendum. I disagree, if you want to actively defy the law, be prepared to be stopped.

Illegal under Spanish national law, sure. But national law does not supercede the right of a population to choose its own leaders and government, for such a right is bound up in the state of being human, a far more fundamental circumstance than being a citizen of Spain.

The fact that you don’t understand the difference between “let’s vote to go rape people!” and self-determination is telling. One of these things is not like the other.

"The state of being human"

That's cute.

[Shenli]

You mean the trouble and chaos the central government has caused by trying to suppress an expression of popular will? Yeah, protip: any time you send men in masks to stop civilians with ballot boxes, you should take a hard look at yourself.

It.is.illegal! How are people getting confused by this? By that logic, can people break any law if enough want to? Can people go out killing if enough want to? Or raping or thieving or whatever it is they want? Would any of those suddenly become acceptable to do if it was the "popular will" that they should be? I think you'll find that it isn't the popular will because most didn't want an illegal referendum. I disagree, if you want to actively defy the law, be prepared to be stopped.

it is illegal because a non-democratic Spain decided it was ! Honestly, even in my country France, we don't make Corsican independentists illegal, they are now 3/4 at the parliament even though our law says the country is undivisible !

[Ellarine]

Laws are given legitimacy through a complex and usually invisible power tension between the government and the people they represent. The law, properly implemented, is basically the people imposing the people's will on the people. Detachment of legal validity from popular will leads to tyranny, revolution and massacre.

No, governments MAKE laws, people follow them. That's how it works. People do NOT have the right to change laws.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

It.is.illegal! How are people getting confused by this? By that logic, can people break any law if enough want to? Can people go out killing if enough want to? Or raping or thieving or whatever it is they want? Would any of those suddenly become acceptable to do if it was the "popular will" that they should be? I think you'll find that it isn't the popular will because most didn't want an illegal referendum. I disagree, if you want to actively defy the law, be prepared to be stopped.

Illegal under Spanish national law, sure. But national law does not supercede the right of a population to choose its own leaders and government, for such a right is bound up in the state of being human, a far more fundamental circumstance than being a citizen of Spain.

The fact that you don’t understand the difference between “let’s vote to go rape people!” and self-determination is telling. One of these things is not like the other.

Can Alabama ban Islam and homosexuality now please?

[Trumptonium]

The images of anti-Catalan protesters with Franco flags are pride-inducing even if I'm not a Spaniard. And they're all young as well.

When did supporting fascism become acceptable again?

Since leftist liberals went nuts with their ideology.

Viva Espana

And they're not really fascist but that's a different topic. Viewer discretion advised, particularly if user is easily triggered and does not understand the Spanish context:

C'est much better with sound
https://twitter.com/Ian56789/status/914460535126659072

[Zottistan]

Ottomans are the true successors of Rome, infidel.


If the Catalans vote for independence, the Spanish are no longer defending the integrity of their state by denying it to them. They're forcefully imposing their will on a people they no longer represent. They'd basically be an empire putting down the independence of a territory.

I wonder if Spain would still have any right to call itself Spain if Catalonia leaves.

They've no claim to legitimacy and their vote is illegal. They should be suppressed. Doesn't much matter if they want independence or not.

If the Spanish are fine with renouncing all pretensions of being a popular democracy and instead rebrand themselves as a forceful empire again then sure, go for it.

Somehow I don't see that happening, though. If they've got the smug pretensions to democratic idealism that the west in general seems to have nowadays, they should either act on those pretensions or be shamefully called out for their two-faced cowardice and failure to do so.

EDIT: If you have an empire, own up to having an empire. Don't expect distinct peoples to be grateful for you shoving your jackboots down on their throats.

[Bananaistan]

Heh. Tyrants the world over and throughout history have pointed at laws to justify oppression.

Laws are given legitimacy through a complex and usually invisible power tension between the government and the people they represent. The law, properly implemented, is basically the people imposing the people's will on the people. Detachment of legal validity from popular will leads to tyranny, revolution and massacre.

No, governments MAKE laws, people follow them. That's how it works. People do NOT have the right to change laws.

I think you have fundamentally misunderstood the nature of democracy.

[Kramania]

They've no claim to legitimacy and their vote is illegal. They should be suppressed. Doesn't much matter if they want independence or not.

If the Spanish are fine with renouncing all pretensions of being a popular democracy and instead rebrand themselves as a forceful empire again then sure, go for it.

Somehow I don't see that happening, though. If they've got the smug pretensions to democratic idealism that the west in general seems to have nowadays, they should either act on those pretensions or be shamefully called out for their two-faced cowardice and failure to do so.

Catalans already have the right to vote despite being an autonomous community. But secession and the fracturing of the Spanish state are another matter entirely.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Heh. Tyrants the world over and throughout history have pointed at laws to justify oppression.

The Catalans are so oppressed! Look! They're not allowed to leave Spain! Spain is as bad as the Union of the Civil War!

[G-Tech Corporation]

Roma Invicta, citizen.

Iberia is rightful Russian clay, for she bears the mantle of the Third Roman Empire.

>Russia
>Frozen shithole full of Barbarians whose MO consists of aping Western Europeans
>Only married some Byzantine slut
>Successor to Rome

Historiography argues... “sorta?”

Ottomans are the true successors of Rome, infidel.

"We sacked a city on the other side of the sea from Rome so we're the successors of Rome now."

So you would argue that a piece of paper trumps a popular mandate for self-determination?

I’m not sure you understand how the legitimacy of a state works in the modern day, friendo.

The “integrity of its state” only exists insofar as the people of that state consent to be governed; if it is imposed on a population that no longer consents, tyranny exists, not benevolent sovereignty.

Can Alabama outlaw Islam and homosexuality now?

Sure, if they had a plebiscite on the issue that had a turnout and result commensurate with such a desire. Ultimately all people should be allowed to determine how they live. In the case of Alabama the waters are muddied by the fact that they are subservient to the laws of a greater polity, and generally quite satisfied with remaining part of that greater polity, thereby expressing a common mandate for the implementation of the laws with that polity which run contrary to your mentioned scenario.

But if a direct plebiscite on such matters established a favorable result, I would happily argue that such a population still retains the right to determine how they should live, politically and socially.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

If the Spanish are fine with renouncing all pretensions of being a popular democracy and instead rebrand themselves as a forceful empire again then sure, go for it.

Somehow I don't see that happening, though. If they've got the smug pretensions to democratic idealism that the west in general seems to have nowadays, they should either act on those pretensions or be shamefully called out for their two-faced cowardice and failure to do so.

If it were democratic, I'd think that all of Spain would vote on the issue, considering this decision will affect Spain nationwide.