Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Trumptonium]

Yes, America will nuke Catalonia. You seem like a smart and authoritative person to go to on matters of international affairs.

Nuclear powers tend to have large militaries. That's what I was getting at. The fledgling nation of Catalonia wouldn't last long against France, UK, USA, Germany, Spain, and Poland.

The last 3 aren't nuclear powers btw.

And I doubt Germany would be bothered to help out since they didn't go either to Iraq or to Afghanistan. Their military isn't ready for it anyway and it's leadership is highly inept, led by a minister of defence who doesn't know what she's talking about and a commander in chief who has only ever utilised her powers for humanitarian reasons and has no experience of anything else.

And I don't think it's realistic that anyone else will send full-scale invasion forces to Catalonia. Peacekeepers in Spain to let it's military launch a total assault on Catalonia yeah sure. Direct expeditionary forces that's doubtful. I'll be surprised if the help that Spain receives is anything more than Gendarmeries from France and Poland and military police from US/UK.

[Trumptonium]

The only thing what is left to them is to start an armed inserection. There is no a single nation that achieved independence without a little spoiled blood.

Last I checked Catalonia is not supported by any members of the EU, so if there was any actual fighting, the professional Spanish army along with probably the French and German armies would put a stop to it. Catalonia is too small of a region to put up a good enough fight to get independence.

This is not strictly true. Indeed, no EU member supports Catalan independence for obvious reasons (except for Slovenia, who does), however, a majority have made statements in favour of a full, free and fair referendum to let Catalonia determine its place.

Germany: "We're in favour of the territorial integrity of all states but that's completely different to regions becoming independent and organising themselves. So I share the opinion of the Spanish government, and other than that I won't get involved in domestic Spanish matters" [*]

Lithuania: "If there is a clear will of the people and a clear demand for a referendum, it is absolutely worth it to pay attention and look at options on how to tackle it" [*]

Latvia: "Each country must find its own path and has the right to self-determination" [*]

United Kingdom: "I don't believe that, in the end, [it's right to] try to ignore these questions of nationality, independence, identity... I think it’s right to make your arguments, take them on and then you let the people decide. But that's the way I want to do things in the United Kingdom. I would never presume to tell people in Spain how to meet these challenges themselves; it's a matter for the Spanish Government and the Spanish Prime Minister." [*]

United States: "The United States recognises the unique culture and traditions of the Catalan region, but considers the status of Catalonia to be an internal Spanish matter. We are confident that the Government and the people of Spain will resolve this issue in accordance with their laws and Constitution." [*]

The Financial Times and The Economist support a referendum in Catalonia.

This was from 2014 and the independence referendum then.

The 2017 referendum has wielded the same responses from Germany and France: it's an internal issue of Spain, while trying to hide their beliefs that a free referendum should take place.

While Hungary considers the issue an internal matter of Spain, it outright supports the free will of the people, without saying a referendum should go ahead, but obviously implying it.

Slovenia is so far the first and only EU member to outright support a Catalan referendum, saying that they have a right to self-determination.

The Catalans also received much support from other regional governments in the EU and regional parties, with of course both the governments of Flanders and of Scotland supporting a referendum. Notably, the leader of Lega Nord in Italy supports a referendum, and there's a consensus he'll be in a coalition after the next election.

[Trumptonium]

benefitting from the foreign prestige of the Spanish monarchy

this isn't the place for trolling

[Socialist Czechia]

Catalonians already won, as I mentioned, because Madrid overreacted from the very start, years ago.

It's hardly culturally homogenous state, so its totally not like they coudn't predict that Catalonians (or Euskadis or Galicians) would never want independence, especially in case if united country is shitty for a long time.

Why Madrid so insisted on being pushy from all sides, instead of playing it cool? Seriously.

[Pasong Tirad]

Catalonians already won, as I mentioned, because Madrid overreacted from the very start, years ago.

It's hardly culturally homogenous state, so its totally not like they coudn't predict that Catalonians (or Euskadis or Galicians) would never want independence, especially in case if united country is shitty for a long time.

Why Madrid so insisted on being pushy from all sides, instead of playing it cool? Seriously.

I agree. If they really wanted Catalonia to stay, then they should have just allowed a referendum and campaigned hard for Catalonia to stay - not to say it would be a successful campaign, but the way Britain handled the Scottish referendum was smart. Now, it just looks like peaceful Catalans are being violently prohibited from expressing their right to determine their own future. Madrid has turned into an aggressor, and I wouldn't be surprised if this draws more Catalans to the pro-independence side.

[Bluelight-R006]

I'd definitely like it if Catalonia becomes a country. Why? The Catalans wanted freedom and so be it! It's also nice to have another country on the world map! The 197th country. It sounds satisfying itself!

Too bad this referendum is just a poll and Catalonia would not be given independence at all. Majority wants independence or not.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Police coming into the schools and confiscating ballot urns. Great. -_-

[Shurtur]

I am not Catalonian nor Spanish, so I've no cogent reasoning for either.

[The Huskar Social Union]

If the Catalonian people want independence then i support them in it. Same if they dont.

[Lord of The Rings]

Watching the news it looks like Madrid has just turned to violence against Catalonia... If this would have happened in Russia, Turkey or any non-pro western state the EU would be the first to condemn it, but now that it happens within an EU member state itself they're silence.
Just goes to show that freedom and democracy only counts when it suits them.

[Aellex]

And I don't think it's realistic that anyone else will send full-scale invasion forces to Catalonia. Peacekeepers in Spain to let it's military launch a total assault on Catalonia yeah sure. Direct expeditionary forces that's doubtful. I'll be surprised if the help that Spain receives is anything more than Gendarmeries from France and Poland and military police from US/UK.

Invasion force is unlikely but you could probably expect consequent military support from France to Spain because while we might have succeeded in assimilating the Catalans within our country when the Spaniards failed, we don't want a potentially irredentists nation with claim on some of our land to pop up on our border even if no one inside support it.

[Trumptonium]

The images of anti-Catalan protesters with Franco flags are pride-inducing even if I'm not a Spaniard. And they're all young as well.

[Vassenor]

The images of anti-Catalan protesters with Franco flags are pride-inducing even if I'm not a Spaniard. And they're all young as well.

When did supporting fascism become acceptable again?

[Kramania]

The images of anti-Catalan protesters with Franco flags are pride-inducing even if I'm not a Spaniard. And they're all young as well.

If you pray hard enough the iron hand of Franco will rise from the burning pits of hell and smack Catalonia down.

[Kramania]

The images of anti-Catalan protesters with Franco flags are pride-inducing even if I'm not a Spaniard. And they're all young as well.

When did supporting fascism become acceptable again?

Right around the time supporting communism became acceptable again.

[Zottistan]

Police coming into the schools and confiscating ballot urns. Great. -_-

If there was a more surefire way to guarantee an independence vote I can't think of it.

[G-Tech Corporation]

The images of anti-Catalan protesters with Franco flags are pride-inducing even if I'm not a Spaniard. And they're all young as well.

When did supporting fascism become acceptable again?

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

---

Looks like Spain is going pretty hard Day of the Jackboot to stop this referendum. For shame. That said, reports from the ground are promising; it seems the national government didn’t deploy enough willing thugs to stop people from voting at many of the polling places.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Police coming into the schools and confiscating ballot urns. Great. -_-

If there was a more surefire way to guarantee an independence vote I can't think of it.

Well, police shooting peaceful protestors in order to clear the human chains and confiscate ballot boxes would be more provocative, certainly.

[Vassenor]

Police coming into the schools and confiscating ballot urns. Great. -_-

If there was a more surefire way to guarantee an independence vote I can't think of it.

"Paging Barbara Streisand to the white courtesy phone..."

[Zottistan]

The images of anti-Catalan protesters with Franco flags are pride-inducing even if I'm not a Spaniard. And they're all young as well.

When did supporting fascism become acceptable again?

I remember Reagan once saying that American anti-Francoist forces in the Spanish Civil War were "fighting on the wrong side", implying not only that there was a right side but that the Nationalists were the right side. Spain in particular has always been one of the more controversial faces of the whole fascism thing, and I remember reading that it's only within the last few decades that serious scholarly research has begun on the civil war, because before that it was afraid such research would spark up old tensions, suggesting that until recently Francoism was still popular enough to be dangerous. They called it the pacto del olvido.

[Ellarine]

See, this is why I despise separatists, look at the trouble and chaos they've caused! Madrid shouldn't had to have gone violent but the Catalans forced their hand. I hope the criminals response for all this in the Catalan government are punished severely for their crimes against Spain and for all the chaos they've caused.

[Vassenor]

Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

Well, this is going to end swimmingly for all concerned, isn't it?</s>

[G-Tech Corporation]

See, this is why I despise separatists, look at the trouble and chaos they've caused! Madrid shouldn't had to have gone violent but the Catalans forced their hand. I hope the criminals response for all this in the Catalan government are punished severely for their crimes against Spain and for all the chaos they've caused.

You mean the trouble and chaos the central government has caused by trying to suppress an expression of popular will? Yeah, protip: any time you send men in masks to stop civilians with ballot boxes, you should take a hard look at yourself.

[Zottistan]

See, this is why I despise separatists, look at the trouble and chaos they've caused! Madrid shouldn't had to have gone violent but the Catalans forced their hand. I hope the criminals response for all this in the Catalan government are punished severely for their crimes against Spain and for all the chaos they've caused.

Yeah, damn those separatists, Hispania's only true rulers are the Romans, right?

[G-Tech Corporation]

See, this is why I despise separatists, look at the trouble and chaos they've caused! Madrid shouldn't had to have gone violent but the Catalans forced their hand. I hope the criminals response for all this in the Catalan government are punished severely for their crimes against Spain and for all the chaos they've caused.

Yeah, damn those separatists, Hispania's only true rulers are the Romans, right?

Roma Invicta, citizen.

Iberia is rightful Russian clay, for she bears the mantle of the Third Roman Empire.