Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Catlander]

Fascists in 1978 let a 'democratic formula' to hold a referendum:

1) The President ask to Las Cortes (Congress + Senate) to study the theme.

2) Consejo de Estado (all members of Castille no one catalan) studies if Las Cortes need to bring a debate for this question.

3) First in the Congress and after in the Senate both need 2/3 to aprove a Law the holding of a referendum

4) Tribunal Constitucional need ratify the law if it is constitutional (or not).

NOTING In Estatut de Catalunya (the regional catalan estatute) the TC took 4 years to approve only a part of him.

5) Finally the King of Spain (Chief of spanish State) need to ratify (or not) the above.

The trap is:

a) In Spain actually not exists any division of powers: The President of Governent leads the Party who leads Las Cortes, lead the Consejo de Estado and leads the Justice (also leads de Defensor del Pueblo, Fiscaly of State, etc... but this is another history).

b) The King of Spain (Chief of State) would be absolutely mad if he lets to take hold a referendum to break its kingdom. It's logical. But The Constitution let this trap to steal the people's sovereignty.

In other words: the People can hold a referendum ONLY if a President of Goverment wants. No one party of Madrid (PP or PSOE) NEVER will let that Catalonia can to hold a legal referendum beacuse no one in Madrid, Sevilla or Castille wants.

[The Blaatschapen]

Someone has to take the place of the UK.

Then I'm all for it.

Better food, better weather. Catalonia would make a great UK.

[Risottia]

Someone has to take the place of the UK.

I was thinking of three options: Norway, Switzerland or Canada. Although the most likely next member is Serbia, followed by Albania.

[Aellex]

If the Spaniards don't want of it anymore, I'm all for welcoming back Catalogne in the fold and giving them back their rightful place as one of our Départements. ;^)

[Aellex]

Someone has to take the place of the UK.

Then I'm all for it.

Better food, better weather. Catalonia would make a great UK.

To be fair, having better food or weather than the U.K is about as low as you can set the bar without it actually touching the ground.

[Aellex]

I was thinking of three options: Norway, Switzerland or Canada. Although the most likely next member is Serbia, followed by Albania.

>European union
>Canada

[Shongbao]

I, while defending monarchies to a certain extent, especially the european crowns, understand that most of the catalan people want their independence and because this i support the moviment. The Spanish government is sinking in debt and is sucking up the little money that the states gain by bogging down even more in this crisis, but caution is needed between the two sides, since some apanish separatist (galicia cof cof) movements are only revolutionary communists against the crown or the right in itself.

I am monarchist, though I support Catalan Independence.
They have a better economy than the remaining parts of Spain, thus the Generalitat fears that issue the most.
I am for Catalan Independence.

[Shongbao]

(Image)

At next October 1, the catalan people want to celebrate a referendum to decide their future (become a new state or stay in Spain). The spanish goverment forbid all trying to do it. They consider that Catalonia must remain spanish because the spanish constitution law rejects it.

That Constitution recognizes Catalonia like 'nationality' but their people can"t to vote their own future into Spain, it's all right (by some democrat people) to be loyal with The Law in a 'usual' country, sure!, BUT......

It's long to explain the context about all.... in 1975 Franco dies, all franquist system still stand in the dark of power and they co-write our Constitution, the current one!. It was a necessary condition for them to relinquish power and recycle themselves into democracy. In Spain IS NOT POSSIBLE a trial againts Franco crimes from his dictatorship. The victims of the Franco regime still can't dignify their dead since the civil war!. The PP is heir of that regime. Now the franquists (their grantchildren) are in great lobbies of Energy, Banks, Building, Communication, TV, etc. All this lobbies give money to PP of Mariano Rajoy to stand in the power. Great Corruption!

Popular Party (PP) of Mariano Rajoy has militants leading the Constitutional Court, Parliament, Bank of Spain, IBEX35 (spanish stock market), Defensor del Pueblo (People Lawyer), etc. All institutions of State are puppets from PP. Also too the Top newspapers: ABC, El Pais, El Mundo, La Vanguardia, La Razón is left or right-left supporting to PP againts Catalonia.

All I told before is needed to understand the reason why the catalans rejects this "Spanish Constitution", this "democracy" and this spanish "State", because everything in spanish State it's a great joke of democracy. A fake.

Ask yourself: How is possible that International Justice NEVER sentenced the franquism?

We will need international support to get our independence from spanish state. But what do you think about it?

Related links:
[BBC News]Catalonia's push for independence from Spain

[youtube]Barcelona Bussines: capital of Catalonia

NS nations Poll

VOTERS (IN PROGRESS): 11
-YES 6
-NO 3
-NOT SURE/NO MATTER: 2

Where's the pollmaker?

[Sovaal]

I was thinking of three options: Norway, Switzerland or Canada. Although the most likely next member is Serbia, followed by Albania.

>European union
>Canada

Shh, only Americans don't know geography./s
Anyway, a fallout style annexation of Canada by the US is probably more realistic then it joining the EU.

[Catlander]

If the Spaniards don't want of it anymore, I'm all for welcoming back Catalogne in the fold and giving them back their rightful place as one of our Départements. ;^)

Bien sur! France must to link all north-catalan regions (Languedoc - Roussilion) with our own, respect our language and culture and to let we manage our federal taxes. Otherwise we won't like it.

French piece of Catalonia in french hands since Pyrennes Tractat (1659) a gift beetween Borbon Kings...


Meanwhile in Perpignan

[Aellex]

Bien sur! France must to link all north-catalan regions (Languedoc - Roussilion) with our own, respect our language and culture and to let we manage our federal taxes. Otherwise we won't like it.

French piece of Catalonia in french hands since Pyrennes Tractat (1659) a gift beetween Borbon Kings...
(Image)

Meanwhile in Perpignan
(Image)

Or we could Vergonha you to make you good français like we did with the Perpignonais because we're an unitary state and not a federal one.

All kidding aside, if Catalonia was to be independent, it would be good to have some cultural exchange between our country and especially those regions.
They can hardly be called "Catalonese" today as no one even speak the language anymore, but still.

[Risottia]

I was thinking of three options: Norway, Switzerland or Canada. Although the most likely next member is Serbia, followed by Albania.

>European union
>Canada

So what? Cyprus is a member and it is geographically Asia. Greenland was in the EEC and it is geographically America.

Shh, only Americans don't know geography./s

Nope, I would guess there are Americans who also fail at history.

[Catlander]

@Aellex [fr]Les catalans du sud souhaitons la francophonie, mais nous aimons aussi être comme nous sommes

The south-catalans wish be in the 'french commonweath' but we like to be ourselves too.

[Herrebrugh]

No. Catalans owe their allegiance to His Catholic Majesty the King of Spain. Catalan separatists are traitors to the Spanish Crown. They have no right to secede.

On the other hand, I do support autonomy for Spain's traditional constituent nationalities, Catalonia included. The repression of regional identities under the Francoist regime was unjustified, but Catalans today are not oppressed in any realistic way.

kings owe everything to the people and can get fucked

[Aellex]

@Aellex [fr]Les catalans du sud souhaitons la francophonie, mais nous aimons aussi être comme nous sommes

The south-catalans wish be in the 'french commonweath' but we like to be ourselves too.

Honestly, that's true and fair enough. I would be glad to see you get your own Nation.

[Aellex]

So what? Cyprus is a member and it is geographically Asia. Greenland was in the EEC and it is geographically America.

Cyprus is a special case because it was always considered to be part of Europe by virtue of being a Greek island.
And Algeria too used to be part of one of the proto-entity that became the E.U but it was only in virtue of being a French territory at the time.
Bringing up Greenland that was in the same position but with Denmark instead don't makes much sense and even less of an argument.

[Catlander]

@Aellex [fr]Les catalans du sud souhaitons la francophonie, mais nous aimons aussi être comme nous sommes

The south-catalans wish be in the 'french commonweath' but we like to be ourselves too.

Honestly, that's true and fair enough. I would be glad to see you get your own Nation.

avec plaisir m'sieur

[Tarragona]

I'd prefer that Catalonia stay in Spain.

[The Holy Therns]

Someone has to take the place of the UK.

Then I'm all for it.

Better food, better weather. Catalonia would make a great UK.

...He says, mouth full of haggis.

[The Archregimancy]

Alright, Catlander, I'm genuinely curious...

If I'm reading your posts correctly - and do please correct me if I'm wrong - one of your core arguments is that the 1978 Spanish constitution is essentially a Francoist conservative document that perpetuates Francoist ideology under a democratic disguise; es un lobo con piel de oveja. As such, you believe the 1978 constitution is deliberately designed, at least in part, to stop the Catalan people from fulfilling their democratic destiny.

This seems to run into the basic problem that there more representatives of Catalan political parties on the seven-member panel that drafted the 1978 constitution than there were representatives of the post-Francoist Alianza Popular - the direct predecessor of Rajoy's PP.

For reference, that seven-member panel contained:

Three representatives from the now-defunct centrist Unión de Centro Democrático (UCD), a broad cross-party coalition containing both Christian Democrats and Social Democrats.
One representative from the PSOE, which at the time was still openly espousing Marxism (which it wouldn't wholly reject until 1979)
One representative from the post-Francoist Alianza Popular, which later transmuted into the mainstream conservative PP
One representative (Miquel Roca) from the Pacte Democràtic per Catalunya
One representative (Jordi Solé Tura) from the Partit Socialista Unificat de Catalunya

Now, the AP representative - Manuel Fraga - undoubtedly had a Francoist past; he served as a government minister and as Spain's ambassador to the UK under Franco. He was also the last Minister of the Interior in the dictatorship between the death of Franco and the formation of a democratic Cortes. So there's no denying that Francoist Spain was represented on the drafting committee. But otherwise that looks to many not unreasonable people like a deliberately broad-based panel of individuals that went out of its way to incorporate a broad spectrum of Spanish political opinion at the time, and to also include a significant Catalan component; which likely explains both the extraordinarily high vote of approval for the new constitution across Spain as a whole in the subsequent referendum (very much including Catalonia), and the remarkable success of Spain's transition to a democracy.

There might well be other reasons for supporting Catalan independence, and the core constitutional problem regarding the legality of regional independence referendums is certainly worth discussing; but your core argument that the entire current post-1978 constitutional settlement is some sort of deliberate Francoist plot to subjugate Catalonia isn't likely, I would politely suggest, to convince many of us.

[Sovaal]

>European union
>Canada

So what? Cyprus is a member and it is geographically Asia. Greenland was in the EEC and it is geographically America.

Shh, only Americans don't know geography./s

Nope, I would guess there are Americans who also fail at history.

Yah, true, but every country has those people. I've had Englishmen, and I mean English, tell me that all Americans, Candia a, Australians, etc. are evil for invading and settling foreign lands while the English who stayed home, such as they, where innocent. I don't get people sometimes.

[Rio Cana]

So the future Iberian peninsula could look like this (see map below). I do not think the Basque, in green, would separate from Spain.

Map - https://www.targetmap.com/ThumbnailsRep ... B_IPAD.jpg

[Rio Cana]

While checking on information on Catalonia, came upon an article which says that some people have created an internet platform in which there goal is for Barcelona and Tarragona region to separate from Catalonia. This would only happen if Catalonia ceded from Spain. And they would be named Tabarnia. According to the information, it seems the mayority of people in Barcelona and Tarragona region prefer staying in Spain. Without Barcelona and Tarragona, a Catalonian nation would be at a major economic disadvantage. In other words, most likely not viable.

Map - http://img.imgur.com/Tn7kxPp.jpg
On the map they have written that if Catalonia becomes Independent that they want nothing to do with Catalonia. Free Tabarnia!

[TURTLESHROOM II]

* puts on CSA hat *

THE HAVE A RIGHT TO SECEDE, YA'LL

Seriously, though, they do. Everyone should if they so wish: South Ossetia, California, Donetesk, Novoroyssia, Kurdistan, that Puntland (?) guy in Somalia...

[Catlander]

@The Archregimancy

[es] el artículo 2º de la Constitución -el que articula la cuestión nacional en el Estado español- tiene una génesis antidemocrática. Fue concebido por poderes fácticos extraparlamentarios -nadie pone en duda de que eran militares- e impuesto a los representantes legítimos de la voluntad popular, vaya usted a saber bajo que tipo de amenazas.

[en]Article 2 of the Constitution - which articulates the national question in the Spanish State - has an antidemocratic genesis. It was conceived by extra-parliamentary factual powers - no doubt that they were military - and imposed on the legitimate representatives of the popular will, who knows under what kind of threats.

The related article 2 tells

Section 2. The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.

The word 'nationalities' is a joke from francoists. They thus reduce with a new word a nonexistent reality, and what is worse: there is no legal jurisprudence that allows it to exist if it is not under the Spanish Nation.

Source (spanish)
https://josuerkoreka.com/2009/12/04/jor ... -impuesta/

I invite you to translate it all.