Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Thermodolia]

Imposed? Catalonia had the chance to not sign the constitution, which declares that the Spanish union is eternal. They where not forced to sign it, they willingly choose to sign it and accept the consequences. This is all on them

The Treaty of Utrecht cedes Gibraltar to the UK in perpetuity but that hasn't stopped the Spanish government from constantly demanding it back.

Tough luck for Spain. They have to live with it just like Catalonia has to live with being in Spain. Unless they get the constitution changed

[Socialist Nordia]

Madrid is scared s***of this and some of themhave held a referendum of their own - shows there is something for the cool catalans to vote against.

At the very minimum this illustrates a need for each region to vote on this 'solidarity'(ha!) to get rid of this - what i'd call- imposed, eternal union. That would at least get rid of such a stupid concept, maybe then it'll make Madrid treat the rest of spain a bit less disrespectfully.

Imposed? Catalonia had the chance to not sign the constitution, which declares that the Spanish union is eternal. They where not forced to sign it, they willingly choose to sign it and accept the consequences. This is all on them

That was almost 40 years ago. Some of the staunchest supporters of independence are young people, who had literally 0 say in it. Anyone who is younger than 56 years could not have actually agreed to the Spanish Constitution. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect these people, and all of their descendants for eternity, to forced to sacrifice their democratic right to self determination based off of a constitution they weren't alive to impact.

[Thermodolia]

Imposed? Catalonia had the chance to not sign the constitution, which declares that the Spanish union is eternal. They where not forced to sign it, they willingly choose to sign it and accept the consequences. This is all on them

That was almost 40 years ago. Some of the staunchest supporters of independence are young people, who had literally 0 say in it. Anyone who is younger than 56 years could not have actually agreed to the Spanish Constitution. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect these people, and all of their descendants for eternity, to forced to sacrifice their democratic right to self determination based off of a constitution they weren't alive to impact.

So because a law was passed before I was born I don't have to listen to it because I didn't get a say in it. Cool. Brb going to go get me some slaves.

[Farnhamia]

Imposed? Catalonia had the chance to not sign the constitution, which declares that the Spanish union is eternal. They where not forced to sign it, they willingly choose to sign it and accept the consequences. This is all on them

That was almost 40 years ago. Some of the staunchest supporters of independence are young people, who had literally 0 say in it. Anyone who is younger than 56 years could not have actually agreed to the Spanish Constitution. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect these people, and all of their descendants for eternity, to forced to sacrifice their democratic right to self determination based off of a constitution they weren't alive to impact.

So what? I wasn't alive when the US Constitution was ratified but I stand by it and what's more, I understand how to amend it. Those young people of Catalonia should work through the proper channels to get what they want. As it stands, this vote is not binding on anyone.

[Socialist Nordia]

That was almost 40 years ago. Some of the staunchest supporters of independence are young people, who had literally 0 say in it. Anyone who is younger than 56 years could not have actually agreed to the Spanish Constitution. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect these people, and all of their descendants for eternity, to forced to sacrifice their democratic right to self determination based off of a constitution they weren't alive to impact.

So what? I wasn't alive when the US Constitution was ratified but I stand by it and what's more, I understand how to amend it. Those young people of Catalonia should work through the proper channels to get what they want. As it stands, this vote is not binding on anyone.

I personally hate the US Constitution too, and it's so dreadful that it offers no avenue for it to be done away with by direct action of the people. So that argument isn't going to work on me.

And secondly, the way this works, Catalonia is intentionally never allowed to change the Constitution and you know this. Catalonia is only a small part of Spain's population, so there's no way they could realistically change the constitution because they're under the control of a larger nation.

So telling them "go change the constitution" really means "you're stuck with this whether you like it or not."

[Thermodolia]

So what? I wasn't alive when the US Constitution was ratified but I stand by it and what's more, I understand how to amend it. Those young people of Catalonia should work through the proper channels to get what they want. As it stands, this vote is not binding on anyone.

I personally hate the US Constitution too, and it's so dreadful that it offers no avenue for it to be done away with by direct action of the people. So that argument isn't going to work on me.

And secondly, the way this works, Catalonia is intentionally never allowed to change the Constitution and you know this. Catalonia is only a small part of Spain's population, so there's no way they could realistically change the constitution because they're under the control of a larger nation.

So telling them "go change the constitution" really means "you're stuck with this whether you like it or not."

Then campaign for it nationally. Don't just do it in Catalonia alone

[Senkaku]

So what? I wasn't alive when the US Constitution was ratified but I stand by it and what's more, I understand how to amend it. Those young people of Catalonia should work through the proper channels to get what they want. As it stands, this vote is not binding on anyone.

I personally hate the US Constitution too, and it's so dreadful that it offers no avenue for it to be done away with by direct action of the people. So that argument isn't going to work on me.

And secondly, the way this works, Catalonia is intentionally never allowed to change the Constitution and you know this. Catalonia is only a small part of Spain's population, so there's no way they could realistically change the constitution because they're under the control of a larger nation.

So telling them "go change the constitution" really means "you're stuck with this whether you like it or not."

so the argument is literally "it happened before they were born so they don't have to respect it"

slippery_slope.jpg

[Thermodolia]

I personally hate the US Constitution too, and it's so dreadful that it offers no avenue for it to be done away with by direct action of the people. So that argument isn't going to work on me.

And secondly, the way this works, Catalonia is intentionally never allowed to change the Constitution and you know this. Catalonia is only a small part of Spain's population, so there's no way they could realistically change the constitution because they're under the control of a larger nation.

So telling them "go change the constitution" really means "you're stuck with this whether you like it or not."

so the argument is literally "it happened before they were born so they don't have to respect it"

slippery_slope.jpg

TIL that slavery, murder, and bribery don't apply to me

[Farnhamia]

So what? I wasn't alive when the US Constitution was ratified but I stand by it and what's more, I understand how to amend it. Those young people of Catalonia should work through the proper channels to get what they want. As it stands, this vote is not binding on anyone.

I personally hate the US Constitution too, and it's so dreadful that it offers no avenue for it to be done away with by direct action of the people. So that argument isn't going to work on me.

And secondly, the way this works, Catalonia is intentionally never allowed to change the Constitution and you know this. Catalonia is only a small part of Spain's population, so there's no way they could realistically change the constitution because they're under the control of a larger nation.

So telling them "go change the constitution" really means "you're stuck with this whether you like it or not."

The people of the US can have their state legislatures call for a constitutional convention. You get three-quarters of those legislatures to issue a call and presto! constitutional convention. That's not the point, though. It is not necessary for all governments to justify themselves to the people of their countries on a regular basis so long as they are not actively oppressiing those people. I haven't heard a cogent case for Catalonia separating from Spain beyond, "We want our freedom!"

[Socialist Nordia]

I personally hate the US Constitution too, and it's so dreadful that it offers no avenue for it to be done away with by direct action of the people. So that argument isn't going to work on me.

And secondly, the way this works, Catalonia is intentionally never allowed to change the Constitution and you know this. Catalonia is only a small part of Spain's population, so there's no way they could realistically change the constitution because they're under the control of a larger nation.

So telling them "go change the constitution" really means "you're stuck with this whether you like it or not."

so the argument is literally "it happened before they were born so they don't have to respect it"

slippery_slope.jpg

"It happened before they were born" isn't the problem.

"It happened before they were born and were given no realistic means to democratically change it even if it is no longer supported".

[Thermodolia]

so the argument is literally "it happened before they were born so they don't have to respect it"

slippery_slope.jpg

"It happened before they were born" isn't the problem.

"It happened before they were born and were given no realistic means to democratically change it even if it is no longer supported".

That's still a very slippery slope.

[NeuPolska]

Only way I'd support Catalonia leaving Spain is if they become a constitutional monarchy/crowned republic headed by His Majesty King Felipe VI. They remain in a union with Spain, but are able to have their own legislature and judiciary, and rule themselves while benefitting from the stable oversight and foreign prestige of the Spanish monarchy. A free trade agreement allowing full access between Catalan and Spanish markets would also be necessary.

[Socialist Nordia]

I personally hate the US Constitution too, and it's so dreadful that it offers no avenue for it to be done away with by direct action of the people. So that argument isn't going to work on me.

And secondly, the way this works, Catalonia is intentionally never allowed to change the Constitution and you know this. Catalonia is only a small part of Spain's population, so there's no way they could realistically change the constitution because they're under the control of a larger nation.

So telling them "go change the constitution" really means "you're stuck with this whether you like it or not."

The people of the US can have their state legislatures call for a constitutional convention. You get three-quarters of those legislatures to issue a call and presto! constitutional convention. That's not the point, though. It is not necessary for all governments to justify themselves to the people of their countries on a regular basis so long as they are not actively oppressiing those people. I haven't heard a cogent case for Catalonia separating from Spain beyond, "We want our freedom!"

"as they are not actively oppressiing those people."
Oppressing as in locking up political dissidents or shutting down a referendum?

Catalonia has had to put up with a hell of a lot of suspiciously authoritarian shit lately.

[Neanderthaland]

Only way I'd support Catalonia leaving Spain is if they become a constitutional monarchy/crowned republic headed by His Majesty King Felipe VI. They remain in a union with Spain, but are able to have their own legislature and judiciary, and rule themselves while benefitting from the stable oversight and foreign prestige of the Spanish monarchy. A free trade agreement allowing full access between Catalan and Spanish markets would also be necessary.

Nonsense. They should be ruled by a Jagiellonian.

[Socialist Nordia]

"It happened before they were born" isn't the problem.

"It happened before they were born and were given no realistic means to democratically change it even if it is no longer supported".

That's still a very slippery slope.

Being able to democratically change laws isn't a slippery slope, it's something that normally already happens.

[Farnhamia]

The people of the US can have their state legislatures call for a constitutional convention. You get three-quarters of those legislatures to issue a call and presto! constitutional convention. That's not the point, though. It is not necessary for all governments to justify themselves to the people of their countries on a regular basis so long as they are not actively oppressiing those people. I haven't heard a cogent case for Catalonia separating from Spain beyond, "We want our freedom!"

"as they are not actively oppressiing those people."
Oppressing as in locking up political dissidents or shutting down a referendum?

Catalonia has had to put up with a hell of a lot of suspiciously authoritarian shit lately.

Catalonia is indulging in an illegal referendum to illegally secede from Spain. What would you do? Wipe away a tear and say, "Farewell, wayward sister, depart in peace" and then wave a hanky?

[Thermodolia]

That's still a very slippery slope.

Being able to democratically change laws isn't a slippery slope, it's something that normally already happens.

Not in the way you are proposing

[NeuPolska]

Only way I'd support Catalonia leaving Spain is if they become a constitutional monarchy/crowned republic headed by His Majesty King Felipe VI. They remain in a union with Spain, but are able to have their own legislature and judiciary, and rule themselves while benefitting from the stable oversight and foreign prestige of the Spanish monarchy. A free trade agreement allowing full access between Catalan and Spanish markets would also be necessary.

Nonsense. They should be ruled by a Jagiellonian.

Jagiellonians can stay in Poland and post-Commonwealth countries

[Neanderthaland]

Nonsense. They should be ruled by a Jagiellonian.

Jagiellonians can stay in Poland and post-Commonwealth countries

And into space.

[NeuPolska]

Jagiellonians can stay in Poland and post-Commonwealth countries

And into space.

Yes

[Aboim]

So what we're basically seeing here is that the Spanish government hates democracy.

Either that, or this guy has risen from the death...

Franco, his crimes of war, and the bitterness may be the motivation for some people be afraid to hold a referendum, but an impartial tribunal, previously established by law, will judge the arrested dissidents.

Moreover, Catalonians can still elect another government in Madrid with other legal interpretation, which is probably the real reason for this in many cases. The Rajoy’s strategy seems unintelligent; however, he is far away from fascism. On the other hand, what can arises from this I don't know

[Sanctissima]

So what we're basically seeing here is that the Spanish government hates democracy.

Sure...

Nevermind that the Catalan referendum was illegal. Or that secession directly violates the Spanish constitution.

Do go on though about how Spain hates democracy.

[Soviet-mongol]

Moreover, Catalonians can still elect another government in Madrid with other legal interpretation, which is probably the real reason for this in many cases. The Rajoy’s strategy seems unintelligent; however, he is far away from fascism. On the other hand, what can arises from this I don't know

Well, that is not quite true. The majority of votes that elects the government in Madrid comes from rest of Spain who are in favour of independence.

[Vassenor]

So when did using force to silence dissent become democratic?

[Sanctissima]

So when did using force to silence dissent become democratic?

Oh dear, the Spanish are trying to enforce their constitution. What is the world coming to?

It's almost as if democracy is more complicated than simple knee-jerk pacifism, and actually amounts to more than just appeasing separatists every time they want to break away and create their own country.