Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Thermodolia]

If Spain wants to be stupid and Balkanize themselves I'd say let them. I'd really like to Balkanize Russia and a few other European states.

[Rio Cana]

So the Catalans want Independence. The only thing I can say is take a number and wait your turn. Puerto Rico is first on line.

Going back, The kingdom of Catalonia was part of the Crown of Aragon which united with the Kingdom of Castile to form Spain. In that relationship, Castile was the main kingdom running things and which changed the way the Crown of Aragon was run. Do not get confused. There was the Crown of Aragon which included the Catalan Kingdom and other kingdoms including the Kingdom of Aragon. The Crown of Aragon was a composite monarchy. The King ruled different regions under those regions laws and rules. Castile was different. It was the same law and rules for everyone.

[Risottia]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_c ... ndum,_1978
Over 95% of the Catalan voters approved the 1978 Constitution, which states that the unity of the Spanish Nation is indissoluble.

Section 2. The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.

Why do you hate the Catalan voters?

In the 1980 elections, over 55% of people voted for nationalist parties. Why do you hate the Catalan voters?

Are you even aware of the difference between voting in a Constitutional referendum and voting in a local election called according to that Constitution to elect representatives who are supposed to exert their prerogatives within the limits set by that Constitution while administrating a local autonomy created by that Constitution? Why do you think you're allowed to misrepresent the results of Catalan elections?

Or for short, rule according to higher law. Learn about it.

[Thermodolia]

So the Catalans want Independence. The only thing I can say is take a number and wait your turn. Puerto Rico is first on line.

Going back, The kingdom of Catalonia was part of the Crown of Aragon which united with the Kingdom of Castile to form Spain. In that relationship, Castile was the main kingdom running things and which changed the way the Crown of Aragon was run. Do not get confused. There was the Crown of Aragon which included the Catalan Kingdom and other kingdoms including the Kingdom of Aragon. The Crown of Aragon was a composite monarchy. The King ruled different regions under those regions laws and rules. Spain was different. It was the same law and rules for everyone.

PR isn't ever going to be independent. You know that, I know that, hell everyone and their pet knows that. PR is more likely to become a state than independent

[Thermodolia]

In the 1980 elections, over 55% of people voted for nationalist parties. Why do you hate the Catalan voters?

Are you even aware of the difference between voting in a Constitutional referendum and voting in a local election called according to that Constitution to elect representatives who are supposed to exert their prerogatives within the limits set by that Constitution while administrating a local autonomy created by that Constitution? Why do you think you're allowed to misrepresent the results of Catalan elections?

Or for short, rule according to higher law. Learn about it.

You are talking to someone who wants Scotland to be free from the British right?

[Catlander]

@The Archregimancy: a veredict look like Slobodan Milosevic

Yes, I understand what you're trying to say. You think there should have been some sort of ICC-like process to bring Franco to trial post-1945 (even though this was 50 years before the ICC existed).

But I'm not sure you fully understand my points. The points I'm making are that A) the UN did condemn Franco in 1946 but that B) there was no mechanism in place in the aftermath of the Second World for bringing to trial the head of government of a sovereign state that hadn't been a belligerent during the Second World War. Attempting to argue for a Milosevic-like process for Franco is to argue for retrospectively applying early 21st-century international legal procedures to the mid-20th century when those procedures hadn't been formed yet. It's not a defence of Franco's human rights abuses to note that you're taking the global community to task for failing to do something that it wasn't capable of doing in the context of the time. Nor were the Nuremberg trials or their Japanese equivalents direct precedents for putting him on trial since Spain was neutral during the Second World War; the United Nations was not about to invade Spain for the specific purpose of deposing Franco.

Though I suppose we could always disinter him from the Valle de los Caidos and hold a modern equivalent of the cadaver synod.

Perfect. So I forget ask any support from UN or ICC at all. O.K.

Did you know that Aznar (friend of Geoge Bush) gave 40.000€/year to Franco Fundation (yes it exist yet). Translate it please

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/ ... os-6059558

Rajoy gave 1 million
http://m.publico.es/sociedad/1992746/ra ... acatolicas

So... Now do you agree I can to ask a referendum in Catalonia?

[The Blaatschapen]

@The Archregimancy: a veredict look like Slobodan Milosevic

Yes, I understand what you're trying to say. You think there should have been some sort of ICC-like process to bring Franco to trial post-1945 (even though this was 50 years before the ICC existed).

But I'm not sure you fully understand my points. The points I'm making are that A) the UN did condemn Franco in 1946 but that B) there was no mechanism in place in the aftermath of the Second World for bringing to trial the head of government of a sovereign state that hadn't been a belligerent during the Second World War. Attempting to argue for a Milosevic-like process for Franco is to argue for retrospectively applying early 21st-century international legal procedures to the mid-20th century when those procedures hadn't been formed yet. It's not a defence of Franco's human rights abuses to note that you're taking the global community to task for failing to do something that it wasn't capable of doing in the context of the time. Nor were the Nuremberg trials or their Japanese equivalents direct precedents for putting him on trial since Spain was neutral during the Second World War; the United Nations was not about to invade Spain for the specific purpose of deposing Franco.

Though I suppose we could always disinter him from the Valle de los Caidos and hold a modern equivalent of the cadaver synod.

For the record, I am not against putting dead people on trial for human rights abuses and war crimes. If only so that Wikipedia can categorise them as such.

Though having the actual body at the trial seems a bit much. I'm fine with letting it rest somewhere.

[Rio Cana]

So the Catalans want Independence. The only thing I can say is take a number and wait your turn. Puerto Rico is first on line.

Going back, The kingdom of Catalonia was part of the Crown of Aragon which united with the Kingdom of Castile to form Spain. In that relationship, Castile was the main kingdom running things and which changed the way the Crown of Aragon was run. Do not get confused. There was the Crown of Aragon which included the Catalan Kingdom and other kingdoms including the Kingdom of Aragon. The Crown of Aragon was a composite monarchy. The King ruled different regions under those regions laws and rules. Spain was different. It was the same law and rules for everyone.

PR isn't ever going to be independent. You know that, I know that, hell everyone and their pet knows that. PR is more likely to become a state than independent

And that obsolete stuck in the past joke of a nation NK. cannot possibly have ballistic missiles or nuclear weapons. How about this one, and the UK. will never leave the EU. And on and on. Like they say, never say never since you never know.

[Farnhamia]

Yes, I understand what you're trying to say. You think there should have been some sort of ICC-like process to bring Franco to trial post-1945 (even though this was 50 years before the ICC existed).

But I'm not sure you fully understand my points. The points I'm making are that A) the UN did condemn Franco in 1946 but that B) there was no mechanism in place in the aftermath of the Second World for bringing to trial the head of government of a sovereign state that hadn't been a belligerent during the Second World War. Attempting to argue for a Milosevic-like process for Franco is to argue for retrospectively applying early 21st-century international legal procedures to the mid-20th century when those procedures hadn't been formed yet. It's not a defence of Franco's human rights abuses to note that you're taking the global community to task for failing to do something that it wasn't capable of doing in the context of the time. Nor were the Nuremberg trials or their Japanese equivalents direct precedents for putting him on trial since Spain was neutral during the Second World War; the United Nations was not about to invade Spain for the specific purpose of deposing Franco.

Though I suppose we could always disinter him from the Valle de los Caidos and hold a modern equivalent of the cadaver synod.

Perfect. So I forget ask any support from UN or ICC at all. O.K.

Did you know that Aznar (friend of Geoge Bush) gave 40.000€/year to Franco Fundation (yes it exist yet). Translate it please

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/ ... os-6059558

Rajoy gave 1 million
http://m.publico.es/sociedad/1992746/ra ... acatolicas

So... Now do you agree I can to ask a referendum in Catalonia?

What does people giving their money to the Franco Foundation have to do with a Catalan independence referendum?

[Gyrenaica]

If the people in Catalonia wish to go it alone, then they have a right to choose their own path. If that path leads to ruin, they can go running back to mother Spain.

[Gyrenaica]

If Spain wants to be stupid and Balkanize themselves I'd say let them. I'd really like to Balkanize Russia and a few other European states.

Spain doesn't want Catalonia to become independent as it would lead to other secessionist movements in Spain and Europe

[Thermodolia]

PR isn't ever going to be independent. You know that, I know that, hell everyone and their pet knows that. PR is more likely to become a state than independent

And that obsolete stuck in the past joke of a nation NK. cannot possibly have ballistic missiles or nuclear weapons. How about this one, and the UK. will never leave the EU. And on and on. Like they say, never say never since you never know.

The popular support for independence isn't there. Nobody said that NK would never get them just that it would take a long damn time to do so. But when it comes to PR the support just isn't there. More people support the status quo than anything else.

[Thermodolia]

If Spain wants to be stupid and Balkanize themselves I'd say let them. I'd really like to Balkanize Russia and a few other European states.

Spain doesn't want Catalonia to become independent as it would lead to other secessionist movements in Spain and Europe

Hence the stupid

[Rio Cana]

If the people in Catalonia wish to go it alone, then they have a right to choose their own path. If that path leads to ruin, they can go running back to mother Spain.

A Catalonia exit means Spains economy would suffer.

The Basque country and Catalonia are the Spanish economy´s main industrial regions and just five of Spain's provinces (Barcelona, Biscay, Madrid, Navarre and Oviedo, all situated in the north and east) produce over half the country's industrial output. Catalonia, where some 85% of companies are located in Barcelona, is Spain's economic powerhouse and one of Europe's most important industrial regions.

But I would think that if Catalonia left that it would open up other parts of Spain to economic development has a way to make up for the economic loss of Catalonia. I would think the South of Spain is the place in need of more economic development.

Even if Catalonia left, Catalan speaking Valencia would stay. Also the Catalan speaking Balearic islands.

Found the map which shows were the Spanish language and Catalan language meet - https://www.edmaps.com/assets/images/Ca ... ntries.png

On a side note - It seems Spain also has the following problem -

Spain has been transformed in the last three decades from a rural, backward, agricultural country into a nation with a diversified economy with strong manufacturing and service sectors. However Spain's bureaucracy remains firmly rooted in the 1950's.

[Catlander]

@farmhania

When you read Hamlet don't forget ask yourself after: "What does have to do with Hamlet's dilemma (revenge or suicide) if Claudius killed Hamlet"s father and he f***d her mother?"

Cause and Effect. Action & Reaction.

[Rio Cana]

And that obsolete stuck in the past joke of a nation NK. cannot possibly have ballistic missiles or nuclear weapons. How about this one, and the UK. will never leave the EU. And on and on. Like they say, never say never since you never know.

The popular support for independence isn't there. Nobody said that NK would never get them just that it would take a long damn time to do so. But when it comes to PR the support just isn't there. More people support the status quo than anything else.

Read - https://waragainstallpuertoricans.com/2 ... 1st-state/

[Thermodolia]

The popular support for independence isn't there. Nobody said that NK would never get them just that it would take a long damn time to do so. But when it comes to PR the support just isn't there. More people support the status quo than anything else.

Read - https://waragainstallpuertoricans.com/2 ... 1st-state/

And what is this supposed to prove?

[Farnhamia]

@farmhania

When you read Hamlet don't forget ask yourself after: "What does have to do with Hamlet's dilemma (revenge or suicide) if Claudius killed Hamlet"s father and he f***d her mother?"

Cause and Effect. Action & Reaction.

So ... the current Spanish government is run by a crypto-Falangist who is thwarting the desire of the peace-loving Catalan people for freedom? Those same people who voted for the 1978 constitution which, as it's been pointed out to you, says the union of Spain in indissoluble?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

@farmhania

When you read Hamlet don't forget ask yourself after: "What does have to do with Hamlet's dilemma (revenge or suicide) if Claudius killed Hamlet"s father and he f***d her mother?"

Cause and Effect. Action & Reaction.

So ... the current Spanish government is run by a crypto-Falangist who is thwarting the desire of the peace-loving Catalan people for freedom? Those same people who voted for the 1978 constitution which, as it's been pointed out to you, says the union of Spain in indissoluble?

It's like trying to drink a cacti smoothie, Farn, with the barbs and all.

[The Grene Knyght]

I'd certainly support a referendum. It'd stop some of the violence being experienced there.

[Farnhamia]

So ... the current Spanish government is run by a crypto-Falangist who is thwarting the desire of the peace-loving Catalan people for freedom? Those same people who voted for the 1978 constitution which, as it's been pointed out to you, says the union of Spain in indissoluble?

It's like trying to drink a cacti smoothie, Farn, with the barbs and all.

You can do it but you have to leave blender on for like three hours.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It's like trying to drink a cacti smoothie, Farn, with the barbs and all.

You can do it but you have to leave blender on for like three hours.

Too long. You'll fry the motor.

[Risottia]

Are you even aware of the difference between voting in a Constitutional referendum and voting in a local election called according to that Constitution to elect representatives who are supposed to exert their prerogatives within the limits set by that Constitution while administrating a local autonomy created by that Constitution? Why do you think you're allowed to misrepresent the results of Catalan elections?

Or for short, rule according to higher law. Learn about it.

You are talking to someone who wants Scotland to be free from the British right?

Differences between the constitutional arrangements of Spain and of the UK, I guess we know them.
By the way, how could Scotland become free from the British? Is anyone pushing for ANOTHER Irish invasion?

[Risottia]

What does people giving their money to the Franco Foundation have to do with a Catalan independence referendum?

Proves that PP is evil and that Spain is a malevolent fascist dictatorship, hence independence for Catalonia.

I guess. Some logical gap here and there.

[Greed and Death]

Someone has to take the place of the UK.