Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Risottia]

Appeals to the constitution are weak

Ok, appeals to a constitution are weak in a rule-of-law system now.

Wow.

Hence, appeals to a constitution which says the ruling parties shouldn't just send in militias to kill the opponents (like, dunno, Catalan independentists) are weak. And don't come along with appeals to the ECHR or the UDHR, as they're both older than the Constitution of Spain, and as no Spaniard or Catalan voted about them, which, in your system, makes them even weaker.

I guess the Catalans will be ever grateful to you for devising a system where they can be legitimately killed for not being aligned with the Madrid cabinet.

[Republica Federal de Catalunya]

Sure. I'm looking forward to vote.

[Republica Federal de Catalunya]

Looks like Spain needs some lessons on international rights. This oppressive behaviour shouldn't be tolerated within the International community. The right to self-determination should be uphold.

I agree it

I also agree. Spanish State with it's crackdown of catalan people's civil and political liberties it is losing it's legitimacy. Images of antiterrorist police getting inside printing presses looking for ballots and electoral stuff it's giving no arguments to people that would like to vote to remain in Spain.
The funny Is that people who call for voting no are risking to get the same legal consequences than politicians and people that call for Yes vote.

[Socialist Czechia]

I must say again, that's the perfect moment for so called 'king' to step and say something reasonable, like 'we must respect constitution and rule of law above everything, but we should show that our democracy is strong and our nation united, so debate about referendas is legitimate and should be taken seriously by the Government'.

But no, he won't do anything like that, he's PM's personal slave-mouth.

That's why I see position of 'constitutional monarch' highly degrading for both sides, as He can't really express his opinion, because he's not the Sovereign ruling the nation, only Government's puppet, not allowed to do anything without approval.

[Chestaan]

There is no consistent democratic argument for forcing Catalonia to remain in Spain when it doesn't want to. Appeals to the constitution are weak, as strangely enough a lot has changed since 1978 and there are a huge number of new Catalan voters that had no say in 1978.

I doubt those who appeal to the constitution would defend the special position that the Catholic church was previously afforded to them in the Irish constitution despite the Irish people voting for it.

Catalans are divided on the legality and necessity of a referendum on independence. The democratic argument is that it is not worth dividing a society further and defying the law for something half of Catalonia doesn't even want.

Firstly they are already divided in that some want independence and others don't. I don't see how holding a referendum is any more divisive than not holding it as under either case you are disappointing a large section of Catalan society.

Secondly, that is not a democratic argument in the slightest. Democratic minded individuals such as yourself may advance it, but it is not in itself a democratic argument.

As to the legality, as I have already pointed out constitutional appeals to legality can be made for virtually anything. Would the same individuals who point out that the referendum is constitutionally forbidden defend the special position that the Catholic church was previously afforded until the Irish constitution was amended?

[Chestaan]

Appeals to the constitution are weak

Ok, appeals to a constitution are weak in a rule-of-law system now.

Wow.

Hence, appeals to a constitution which says the ruling parties shouldn't just send in militias to kill the opponents (like, dunno, Catalan independentists) are weak. And don't come along with appeals to the ECHR or the UDHR, as they're both older than the Constitution of Spain, and as no Spaniard or Catalan voted about them, which, in your system, makes them even weaker.

I guess the Catalans will be ever grateful to you for devising a system where they can be legitimately killed for not being aligned with the Madrid cabinet.

Nice move on snipping the rest of my post. I'll say it again just so everyone sees it:

Do you agree that because the Irish constitution afforded a special position to the Catholic church that such a position was perfectly ok just because it was in a constitution?

A constitution can be made to say anything. It could say that slavery is fine. It could deny rights to LGBT marriage as the Irish constitution did until recently. But in your opinion these constitutional laws need to be respected just because they are in the constitution, right?

EDIT: Another example, under the Irish constitution abortion is banned. This was voted in by popular vote as the eighth amendment to the constitution. Clearly then if a woman complains that she should be allowed to get an abortion that an answer of "constitution says no" is fine. No more justification needed, right? No need to discuss bodily sovereignty at all because the constitution says so.

[Publica]

Ok, appeals to a constitution are weak in a rule-of-law system now.

Wow.

Hence, appeals to a constitution which says the ruling parties shouldn't just send in militias to kill the opponents (like, dunno, Catalan independentists) are weak. And don't come along with appeals to the ECHR or the UDHR, as they're both older than the Constitution of Spain, and as no Spaniard or Catalan voted about them, which, in your system, makes them even weaker.

I guess the Catalans will be ever grateful to you for devising a system where they can be legitimately killed for not being aligned with the Madrid cabinet.

Nice move on snipping the rest of my post. I'll say it again just so everyone sees it:

Do you agree that because the Irish constitution afforded a special position to the Catholic church that such a position was perfectly ok just because it was in a constitution?

A constitution can be made to say anything. It could say that slavery is fine. It could deny rights to LGBT marriage as the Irish constitution did until recently. But in your opinion these constitutional laws need to be respected just because they are in the constitution, right?

EDIT: Another example, under the Irish constitution abortion is banned. This was voted in by popular vote as the eighth amendment to the constitution. Clearly then if a woman complains that she should be allowed to get an abortion that an answer of "constitution says no" is fine. No more justification needed, right? No need to discuss bodily sovereignty at all because the constitution says so.

Which would be why Risottia advocated persuading Spain to change the constitution first, then vote for independence.

[Minoa]

Franco is partly to blame for why Catalonia wants to go it alone, yet the situation is like something from the opera part of a Queen song: the bit where it says:

Let me go!

Will not let you go!

Let me go!

Will not let you go!

Let me go-o-o-ooo… !

[Catlander]

Lastest news

Spanish police raids Catalonian goverment !! 23 arrested by the moment.

More info:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... rendum-row

The catalan people is going to street now

[Sovaal]

Franco is partly to blame for why Catalonia wants to go it alone, yet the situation is like something from the opera part of a Queen song: the bit where it says:

Let me go!

Will not let you go!

Let me go!

Will not let you go!

Let me go-o-o-ooo… !

Bohemia-Catalonia Kingdom when?

[Chestaan]

Nice move on snipping the rest of my post. I'll say it again just so everyone sees it:

Do you agree that because the Irish constitution afforded a special position to the Catholic church that such a position was perfectly ok just because it was in a constitution?

A constitution can be made to say anything. It could say that slavery is fine. It could deny rights to LGBT marriage as the Irish constitution did until recently. But in your opinion these constitutional laws need to be respected just because they are in the constitution, right?

EDIT: Another example, under the Irish constitution abortion is banned. This was voted in by popular vote as the eighth amendment to the constitution. Clearly then if a woman complains that she should be allowed to get an abortion that an answer of "constitution says no" is fine. No more justification needed, right? No need to discuss bodily sovereignty at all because the constitution says so.

Which would be why Risottia advocated persuading Spain to change the constitution first, then vote for independence.

In which case I have no idea why he replied to me because I made it abundantly clear that my problem was those who use the constitution as a defence in and of itself. Which is exactly what the Spanish central government are doing.

[Chestaan]

Catalonia referendum: Catalonian government 'de facto' suspended by Spain, President of region says

Somehow I don't think this will reduce pro-independence sentiment.

[MERIZoC]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/spain-guardia-civil-raid-catalan-government-hq-referendum-row

Police officers raided Catalan government offices on Wednesday and arrested 12 senior officials in a bid to stop an independence referendum being held in less than two weeks’ time.

This all seems very democratic.

[Catlander]

Catalonia referendum: Catalonian government 'de facto' suspended by Spain, President of region says

Somehow I don't think this will reduce pro-independence sentiment.

Absolutely not. The streets of Barcelona are filling with people arrived from all Catalonia claiming Democracy too. The center is crowded right now. You can see it the the below video

http://www.elperiodico.cat/ca/barcelona ... um-6298125

[Saint-Thor]

Lastest news

Spanish police raids Catalonian goverment !! 23 arrested by the moment.

More info:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... rendum-row

The catalan people is going to street now

Francoism at his finest (minus the executions), with a pinch of Erdoganism.

[Kaboomlandia]

To be honest, I don't really care if Catalonia becomes a state or not, but they need to be able to make this decision without Spanish interference,

[The Censorate]

Article 155
1. If an Autonomous Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way seriously prejudicing the general interests of Spain, the Government, after lodging a complaint with the President of the Autonomous Community and failing to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by an absolute majority of the Senate, take the Control of the bodies of the Autonomous Communities measures necessary in order to compel the latter forcibly to meet said obligations, or in order to protect the above mentioned general interests.
2. With a view to implementing the measures provided in the foregoing clause, the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities.

A great job by Spanish authorities on suppressing illegal acts of secessionism and misconduct by the Catalan administration.

[Krasny-Volny]

The Spaniards will never let the Catalans go it alone.

What a lot of people fail to realize is that they just spent decades stamping out a Basque separatist insurgency to ensure that (relatively) small group of people and the miniature, worthless landmass in the Pyrenees they claimed remained part of Spain.

There's no way they're going to let a massive region like Catalonia, with a large population, plus actual resources and industry, break off.

[Shrillland]

Clearly they won't. After seizing most of the ballot papers, I have a feeling that this is only the beginning. Los Problemas might be starting very soon.

[Thermodolia]

Lastest news

Spanish police raids Catalonian goverment !! 23 arrested by the moment.

More info:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... rendum-row

The catalan people is going to street now

Good. The Spanish government needs to crackdown hard

[Senkaku]

No- Catalan secession is unconstitutional, unnecessary, dangerous, and stupid.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/spain-guardia-civil-raid-catalan-government-hq-referendum-row

Police officers raided Catalan government offices on Wednesday and arrested 12 senior officials in a bid to stop an independence referendum being held in less than two weeks’ time.

This all seems very democratic.

The bit where a bunch of people have decided to irresponsibly push for an unconstitutional secession that they know the central government can't possibly stand for? I guess...

[Napkiraly]

If there is a civil war, will Madrid accept foreign volunteers to help crush the traitors? Asking for a friend. *cough*

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Tanto maullo y golpeteo de pecho. Sí sí, ala Catalunya, que el Barca te ha dao validéz. Faite tu referendum de independencia, ala. Para que así Madrid venga y se lo pase por culo. Y volvemos a la misma mierda cotidiana.

[Saint-Thor]

Tanto maullo y golpeteo de pecho. Sí sí, ala Catalunya, que el Barca te ha dao validéz. Faite tu referendum de independencia, ala. Para que así Madrid venga y se lo pase por culo. Y volvemos a la misma mierda cotidiana.

Why the bitterness? A great majority of Catalans wanted that referendum (like 70%?). Chances are they would have lost it because the YES can't reach even 45%.

[Chestaan]

Lastest news

Spanish police raids Catalonian goverment !! 23 arrested by the moment.

More info:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... rendum-row

The catalan people is going to street now

Good. The Spanish government needs to crackdown hard

Why?