Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Pasong Tirad]

Spain is hilarious, lmoa.
like a rebellious state is gonna just dissolve its government because they said so.
I wonder how this ends up, though.

Rajoy looks fucked either way, really. Send in tanka, you prove Catalans right and more people will become independentists. Do nothing and Spain loses a fourth of its economy and possibly lead to more Balkanization.

[Sabara]

This just shows how important it is that Spain reforms it's constitution. It's ridiculous that Catalonia's been denied UK-style devolved government.

[Vassenor]

This just shows how important it is that Spain reforms it's constitution. It's ridiculous that Catalonia's been denied UK-style devolved government.

They had it, and then Madrid yanked it as a punishment for saying they wanted out.

[Proctopeo]

This just shows how important it is that Spain reforms it's constitution. It's ridiculous that Catalonia's been denied UK-style devolved government.

They had it, and then Madrid yanked it as a punishment for saying they wanted out.

a poor move IMO, since that just makes people want to leave even more

[United States of Red Dawn]

Get ready for a war.

[Proctopeo]

Get ready for a war.

I'll bring Franco back from the dead.

[Aellex]

They had it, and then Madrid yanked it as a punishment for saying they wanted out.

A fitting and deserved punishment, indeed.

[Trumptonium]

Spain is hilarious, lmoa.
like a rebellious state is gonna just dissolve its government because they said so.
I wonder how this ends up, though.

I wonder where the rebellious government will meet and who will follow their demands.

The taxes go to the central Spanish government, the laws come from Madrid, the Catalan government's place of meeting will now be blocked by the Spanish Civil Guard and the politicians are powerless and officially unemployed. Talking about that - where will they get their income from? Time to start finding a job!

[Tekeristan]

Ah geez. Wonder if there will be blood.

[Trumptonium]

This just shows how important it is that Spain reforms it's constitution. It's ridiculous that Catalonia's been denied UK-style devolved government.

Catalonia has (had) way more powers than Scotland does today.

Simply false.

[United States of Red Dawn]

Get ready for a war.

I'll bring Franco back from the dead.

Meh, okay, more like a police action or huge riot with attitude.

[Trumptonium]

They had it, and then Madrid yanked it as a punishment for saying they wanted out.

a poor move IMO, since that just makes people want to leave even more

Spain is hilarious, lmoa.
like a rebellious state is gonna just dissolve its government because they said so.
I wonder how this ends up, though.

Rajoy looks fucked either way, really. Send in tanka, you prove Catalans right and more people will become independentists. Do nothing and Spain loses a fourth of its economy and possibly lead to more Balkanization.

These are nonsensical opinions.

Catalonia is divided in two - people who identify as Spaniards and believe Madrid is the first port of call and people who identify as Catalonians and see Madrid as an oppressor.

People who see themselves as Spaniards won't suddenly become pro-independence because Spain sends in tanks. That's probably what they want to happen. People don't change their national identity because of seeing people they don't identify with/like being suppressed. National identity is not a raffle that changes from Tuesday to Friday.

[Proctopeo]

I'll bring Franco back from the dead.

Meh, okay, more like a police action or huge riot with attitude.

Civil wars in Spain aren't the same without Franco.

a poor move IMO, since that just makes people want to leave even more

Rajoy looks fucked either way, really. Send in tanka, you prove Catalans right and more people will become independentists. Do nothing and Spain loses a fourth of its economy and possibly lead to more Balkanization.

These are nonsensical opinions.

Catalonia is divided in two - people who identify as Spaniards and believe Madrid is the first port of call and people who identify as Catalonians and see Madrid as an oppressor.

People who see themselves as Spaniards won't suddenly become pro-independence because Spain sends in tanks. That's probably what they want to happen.

I respect but ignore your opinion on my opinion.

[Shofercia]

Damn, shit just go serious. And yeah - no good calls for Rajoy. To those of you calling for sending in tanks - seriously? Spain needs Catalonia because of Catalonia's economy. Let's say that the Catalans simply refuse to work until they get independence. What's Madrid going to do? Modern slavery in an EU state?

[Vistulange]

Damn, shit just go serious. And yeah - no good calls for Rajoy. To those of you calling for sending in tanks - seriously? Spain needs Catalonia because of Catalonia's economy. Let's say that the Catalans simply refuse to work until they get independence. What's Madrid going to do? Modern slavery in an EU state?

If the entire region's population manages to organise a strike on such a level as to cripple it, then I suppose we'd all congratulate them and give them a standing ovation as to be so organised and determined, regardless of our political stances.

I don't see that happening, really. Maybe in France, in 1968...not in Catalonia, 2017.

[Sabara]

This just shows how important it is that Spain reforms it's constitution. It's ridiculous that Catalonia's been denied UK-style devolved government.

They had it, and then Madrid yanked it as a punishment for saying they wanted out.

Catalonia has a semi-autonomous government but it's not at the level it should be, iirc I believe there was a motion passed for formal recognition as a country in 2006 but it was denied by Spain's Supreme Court.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Spain is hilarious, lmoa.
like a rebellious state is gonna just dissolve its government because they said so.
I wonder how this ends up, though.

Rajoy looks fucked either way, really. Send in tanka, you prove Catalans right and more people will become independentists.

You don't prove them right, you subjugate a rebellious province.

[Proctopeo]

Damn, shit just go serious. And yeah - no good calls for Rajoy. To those of you calling for sending in tanks - seriously? Spain needs Catalonia because of Catalonia's economy. Let's say that the Catalans simply refuse to work until they get independence. What's Madrid going to do? Modern slavery in an EU state?

If the entire region's population manages to organise a strike on such a level as to cripple it, then I suppose we'd all congratulate them and give them a standing ovation as to be so organised and determined, regardless of our political stances.

I don't see that happening, really. Maybe in France, in 1968...not in Catalonia, 2017.

It's plausible that a significant enough percentage of the population strikes for a difference to be made.
Depends on how stubborn they are and how far they're willing to go.

[Lady Scylla]

Damn, shit just go serious. And yeah - no good calls for Rajoy. To those of you calling for sending in tanks - seriously? Spain needs Catalonia because of Catalonia's economy. Let's say that the Catalans simply refuse to work until they get independence. What's Madrid going to do? Modern slavery in an EU state?

If the entire region's population manages to organise a strike on such a level as to cripple it, then I suppose we'd all congratulate them and give them a standing ovation as to be so organised and determined, regardless of our political stances.

I don't see that happening, really. Maybe in France, in 1968...not in Catalonia, 2017.

I'm hoping for a peaceful resolution (and an independent Catalonia), however, I doubt it'll go that way.

[Trumptonium]

Damn, shit just go serious. And yeah - no good calls for Rajoy. To those of you calling for sending in tanks - seriously? Spain needs Catalonia because of Catalonia's economy. Let's say that the Catalans simply refuse to work until they get independence. What's Madrid going to do? Modern slavery in an EU state?

The majority of important companies in Catalonia have already moved to the rest of Spain.

Two of Catalonia's largest banks moved their headquarters from Barcelona to Madrid and Valencia. The tallest building in Barcelona is going to be empty as of next month and people are losing their jobs en masse.

Catalonia is en route to a depression already.

Catalonia used to have 7 companies on the Madrid IBEX 35 stock index, today it has 0.

If Catalans 'simply refuse to work until they get independence', nothing will happen. Well, except for mass starvation and poverty, I guess. People getting thrown out for not paying mortgages, energy supply and water supply being cut off as people don't have the income to pay their bills.

[Sabara]

This just shows how important it is that Spain reforms it's constitution. It's ridiculous that Catalonia's been denied UK-style devolved government.

Catalonia has (had) way more powers than Scotland does today.

Simply false.

Catalonia's government doesn't have any rights, which is why Madrid can dissolve their parliament. The constitutions of Germany and the UK protect devolved governments, unlike Spain.

[Minoa]

Probably the best way out is if all parties in Catalonia took part in the snap election. Then we will know for sure how many voters agree with independence.

A small step, but it can help both sides size up the reality.

[Trumptonium]

Catalonia has (had) way more powers than Scotland does today.

Simply false.

Catalonia's government doesn't have any rights, which is why Madrid can dissolve their parliament. The constitutions of Germany and the UK protect devolved governments, unlike Spain.

From your own link

"Catalans have a range of powers in many policy areas from culture and environment to communications, transportation, commerce and public safety."

which is why Madrid can dissolve their parliament

So can we in Britain.

The constitutions of the UK protect devolved governments

No.

[Slavonia and Srijem]

Congratulations Catalonia, you were the among the first to recokonize Croatia as independent state although you werent a country yourself back then, i hope my country will return the favor soon.

[Vistulange]

If the entire region's population manages to organise a strike on such a level as to cripple it, then I suppose we'd all congratulate them and give them a standing ovation as to be so organised and determined, regardless of our political stances.

I don't see that happening, really. Maybe in France, in 1968...not in Catalonia, 2017.

I'm hoping for a peaceful resolution (and an independent Catalonia), however, I doubt it'll go that way.

I don't think anybody in their right mind would prefer a violent solution to the issue at hand over a peaceful solution. That said, I agree that it will not go peacefully.

There's Spain, on one hand, whose Constitution explicitly states that Spain cannot be divided. International law establishes that unilaterally declaring independence is not legal. From a legal perspective, Spain is entirely within its right to intervene in Catalonia. From a political perspective, Catalonia's prospects don't look so good, either. EU membership is definitely off the books for the foreseeable future, and I haven't been able to follow just how much capital was running away from Catalonia after this whole mess began, but I'm fairly certain it hasn't been the best for Catalonia.

On the other hand, you have Catalonia, which just conducted an independence referendum with a 43% turnout. The argument was that it was non-binding, but that's kind of a moot point since Puigdemont has gone right ahead with a declaration of independence.

I really don't have a stance on this, or at least a stance I care to share, but I honestly don't see anything good for Catalonia. Not that I see Spain being in a politically good position after this, but Catalonia will probably have it worse.