Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[The of Japan]

It certainly helps if your nation is supported by others, but honestly, diplomatic recognition by anyone is not really necessary. If your people wants to be independent, that's actual, literally, the only necessity.
Kurds or Tuaregs are also sovereign nations, today governing themselves and soon with national state, no matter how 'inconvenient' they are to others

When country is independent de facto, why de iure recognition does matter? It doesn't, like in case of Somaliland, surprisingly stable state but fortunately too distant and too poor for anyone to care

Because when it comes to things like a civil war it helps to have nations on your side, nations that recognize your existence. Otherwise your nation will de jure and de facto CTE

it also helps to have it when the country you used to be apart of invades to retake the land.

[Thermodolia]

Because when it comes to things like a civil war it helps to have nations on your side, nations that recognize your existence. Otherwise your nation will de jure and de facto CTE

it also helps to have it when the country you used to be apart of invades to retake the land.

Pretty much. If nobody explicitly recognizes your nation then that generally means they de facto recognize your independent nation as belonging to a different nation.

[Socialist Czechia]

My point is, that country and nation may exist, whether or not is supported, recognized or at least acknowledged by anyone, and under most extreme circumstances, it may exist without all this.

And Catalonia, even after unilateral declaration, will surely be recognized, unlike Somaliland, because someone will care despite everything. I mean, mentioned Russians will do it in first hour, just to piss off EU, same as Turks and Serbs (it will be total pleasure in their case).
In time, especially if Spain will disintegrate (as most likely Basques will return to rebellion too), state after state will recognize them anyway.

[Thermodolia]

My point is, that country and nation may exist, whether or not is supported, recognized or at least acknowledged by anyone, and under most extreme circumstances, it may exist without all this.

And Catalonia, even after unilateral declaration, will surely be recognized, unlike Somaliland, because someone will care despite everything. I mean, mentioned Russians will do it in first hour, just to piss off EU, same as Turks and Serbs (it will be total pleasure in their case).
In time, especially if Spain will disintegrate (as most likely Basques will return to rebellion too), state after state will recognize them anyway.

No the Russians won't. I already explained why. Spain is a member of NATO the last thing Russia wants to do is sign its death warrant.

Also you already have nations that "exist" but nobody cares, they are called micro-nations. Catalonia won't ever get independence they know this. Spain and Europe will keep Catalonia Spanish.

[Socialist Czechia]

...and yes, seeing most pathetic reactions of Madrid and laughable non-charismatic Spanish PM, I decided to write off Spain altogether.

[Thermodolia]

...and yes, seeing most pathetic reactions of Madrid and laughable non-charismatic Spanish PM, I decided to write off Spain altogether.

Non-charismatic doesn't mean shit when you are willing to use force. Something which the Spanish government has hinted at.

[Keshiland]

My point is, that country and nation may exist, whether or not is supported, recognized or at least acknowledged by anyone, and under most extreme circumstances, it may exist without all this.

And Catalonia, even after unilateral declaration, will surely be recognized, unlike Somaliland, because someone will care despite everything. I mean, mentioned Russians will do it in first hour, just to piss off EU, same as Turks and Serbs (it will be total pleasure in their case).
In time, especially if Spain will disintegrate (as most likely Basques will return to rebellion too), state after state will recognize them anyway.

No the Russians won't. I already explained why. Spain is a member of NATO the last thing Russia wants to do is sign its death warrant.

Also you already have nations that "exist" but nobody cares, they are called micro-nations. Catalonia won't ever get independence they know this. Spain and Europe will keep Catalonia Spanish.

ITS WW3 BECAUSE YOU RECOGNISED CATALONIA AS INDEPENDENT CURSE YOU! :'(

[Socialist Czechia]

No the Russians won't. I already explained why. Spain is a member of NATO the last thing Russia wants to do is sign its death warrant.

Also you already have nations that "exist" but nobody cares, they are called micro-nations. Catalonia won't ever get independence they know this. Spain and Europe will keep Catalonia Spanish.

First, it is absolutely ridiculous to think Americans would ever start extinction of Mankind by hydrogen super-holocaust, even if Russians stood on Atlantic Ocean and Russian tanks marched through Paris. And Russians would more than happy to fight another, classy, attrition war with bloodbaths, for their 'holy motherland'. If Golden Horde, Swedes, French and Germans failed, what makes you think NATO would end differently - in oldschool conventional war, I mean.
Totally not for one country stupid enough to escalate things into rebellion and civil war.

Second, the only thing to ensure that is use of military force: that means machine guns, tanks and Martial Law, preferably in the entire country, as people would protest in other parts of Spain too, especially the Euskadis.

[The of Japan]

No the Russians won't. I already explained why. Spain is a member of NATO the last thing Russia wants to do is sign its death warrant.

Also you already have nations that "exist" but nobody cares, they are called micro-nations. Catalonia won't ever get independence they know this. Spain and Europe will keep Catalonia Spanish.

First, it is absolutely ridiculous to think Americans would ever start extinction of Mankind by hydrogen super-holocaust, even if Russians stood on Atlantic Ocean and Russian tanks marched through Paris. And Russians would more than happy to fight another, classy, attrition war with bloodbaths, for their 'holy motherland'. If Golden Horde, Swedes, French and Germans failed, what makes you think NATO would end differently - in oldschool conventional war, I mean.

Second, the only thing to ensure that is use of military force: that means machine guns, tanks and Martial Law, preferably in the entire country, as people would protest in other parts of Spain too, especially the Euskadis.

Russia doesn't have numerical advantage in people, airforce, navy, industry, etc, only temporary army numerical superiority.

[Thermodolia]

No the Russians won't. I already explained why. Spain is a member of NATO the last thing Russia wants to do is sign its death warrant.

Also you already have nations that "exist" but nobody cares, they are called micro-nations. Catalonia won't ever get independence they know this. Spain and Europe will keep Catalonia Spanish.

ITS WW3 BECAUSE YOU RECOGNISED CATALONIA AS INDEPENDENT CURSE YOU! :'(

No it's because Russia would be interfering in a member of NATO domestic affairs.

[The of Japan]

No the Russians won't. I already explained why. Spain is a member of NATO the last thing Russia wants to do is sign its death warrant.

Also you already have nations that "exist" but nobody cares, they are called micro-nations. Catalonia won't ever get independence they know this. Spain and Europe will keep Catalonia Spanish.

First, it is absolutely ridiculous to think Americans would ever start extinction of Mankind by hydrogen super-holocaust, even if Russians stood on Atlantic Ocean and Russian tanks marched through Paris. And Russians would more than happy to fight another, classy, attrition war with bloodbaths, for their 'holy motherland'. If Golden Horde, Swedes, French and Germans failed, what makes you think NATO would end differently - in oldschool conventional war, I mean.

Second, the only thing to ensure that is use of military force: that means machine guns, tanks and Martial Law, preferably in the entire country, as people would protest in other parts of Spain too, especially the Euskadis.

what can Navarre do that would have any major significance?

[Socialist Czechia]

No it's because Russia would be interfering in a member of NATO domestic affairs.

Isn't happening, like, in iterally every NATO country? Including US elections?

[Socialist Czechia]

what can Navarre do that would have any major significance?

declare independence same day when spain declares martial law and catalonian rebellion begins?

[The of Japan]

No it's because Russia would be interfering in a member of NATO domestic affairs.

Isn't happening, like, in iterally every NATO country? Including US elections?

backing rebels would be too far.

[The of Japan]

what can Navarre do that would have any major significance?

declare independence same day when spain declares martial law and catalonian rebellion begins?

even if both try to do it at same time, how would they be successful without Russian support?

[Socialist Czechia]

it's funny though, that nothing chaotic happens in europe without russians.

russians, russians, russians.

totally not because current establishments are corrupted and weak, only because themselves.

[Keshiland]

Isn't happening, like, in iterally every NATO country? Including US elections?

backing rebels would be too far.

Recognising a state as independent and supporting a rebellion is 2 different things. I should ask the govenor of my former state to do the same and recognise Catalonia as independant.

[Thermodolia]

No the Russians won't. I already explained why. Spain is a member of NATO the last thing Russia wants to do is sign its death warrant.

Also you already have nations that "exist" but nobody cares, they are called micro-nations. Catalonia won't ever get independence they know this. Spain and Europe will keep Catalonia Spanish.

First, it is absolutely ridiculous to think Americans would ever start extinction of Mankind by hydrogen super-holocaust, even if Russians stood on Atlantic Ocean and Russian tanks marched through Paris. And Russians would more than happy to fight another, classy, attrition war with bloodbaths, for their 'holy motherland'. If Golden Horde, Swedes, French and Germans failed, what makes you think NATO would end differently - in oldschool conventional war, I mean.
Totally not for one country stupid enough to escalate things into rebellion and civil war.

Second, the only thing to ensure that is use of military force: that means machine guns, tanks and Martial Law, preferably in the entire country, as people would protest in other parts of Spain too, especially the Euskadis.

Where did I say anything about nuclear weapons?

You do know who's in NATO right? Practically all of Europe. The last thing the Russians want is to have Baltic, Polish, any other Eastern European power, and American tanks rolling across Russia. The Russian economy would collapse in an instant the moment they go to war with NATO.

Russia is in a very shity situation economically right now they aren't going to support Catalonia. Not by any means. The Russians don't want to give NATO a reason to invade Russia. And when the Russian economy collapses, you will have millions of angry unemployed Russians who see that they are losing to NATO and Co and they will do what Russians do best. Revolution.

Putin isn't an idiot and he's not going to risk getting his head chopped off over some place in Spain

[Thermodolia]

No it's because Russia would be interfering in a member of NATO domestic affairs.

Isn't happening, like, in iterally every NATO country? Including US elections?

Explicit Russia support is very different than suspected Russia interference. Russia will never recognize Catalonia as that will set off a fire that they don't want to mess with

[Thermodolia]

backing rebels would be too far.

Recognising a state as independent and supporting a rebellion is 2 different things. I should ask the govenor of my former state to do the same and recognise Catalonia as independant.

And your governor would be politically damaged

[Socialist Czechia]

if you guys truly believe that one diplomatic insult starts ww3, then we have nothing to discuss

yugoslavia was far more bloody and troubled thing, with massive feels on nato's and russia's side, acaknd nothing between them happened.

so, try to be less edgy and hysterical because of this small mess in messy country.

[The of Japan]

if you guys truly believe that one diplomatic insult starts ww3, then we have nothing to discuss

yugoslavia was far more bloody and troubled thing, with massive feels on nato's and russia's side, acaknd nothing between them happened.

so, try to be less edgy and hysterical because of this small mess in messy country.

it almost happened Kosovo 1999, but anyways Yugoslavia was not involved with nato

[Thermodolia]

if you guys truly believe that one diplomatic insult starts ww3, then we have nothing to discuss

yugoslavia was far more bloody and troubled thing, with massive feels on nato's and russia's side, acaknd nothing between them happened.

so, try to be less edgy and hysterical because of this small mess in messy country.

I'm not being edgy and hysterical I'm being realistic. Spain is a NATO member state Russia will not explicitly support Spanish rebels what so ever. It wouldn't be a diplomatic insult it would be bordering on war.

[Keshiland]

if you guys truly believe that one diplomatic insult starts ww3, then we have nothing to discuss

yugoslavia was far more bloody and troubled thing, with massive feels on nato's and russia's side, acaknd nothing between them happened.

so, try to be less edgy and hysterical because of this small mess in messy country.

I'm not being edgy and hysterical I'm being realistic. Spain is a NATO member state Russia will not explicitly support Spanish rebels what so ever. It wouldn't be a diplomatic insult it would be bordering on war.

You guys are litterally saying that NATO will got to war against any nation that recognises Catalonia as independent and that is hyperbole. If our nations are so sensitive that a recognition of a result that we don't like results in war then I feel sorry for the world.

[Thermodolia]

I'm not being edgy and hysterical I'm being realistic. Spain is a NATO member state Russia will not explicitly support Spanish rebels what so ever. It wouldn't be a diplomatic insult it would be bordering on war.

You guys are litterally saying that NATO will got to war against any nation that recognises Catalonia as independent and that is hyperbole. If our nations are so sensitive that a recognition of a result that we don't like results in war then I feel sorry for the world.

No I didn't say that. I said NATO would go to war with Russia, if Russia supported Spanish rebels. It has nothing to do with the election results at all or anything of the sort. I'm only talking about Russian involvement, and apparently you can't see that.