Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Indo-Malaysia]

Congratulations to the Catalans for gaining the independence they rightfully earned

[Thermodolia]

Congratulations to the Catalans for gaining the independence they rightfully earned

They haven't gained anything. They just declared it, which means absolutely nothing if Spain squashes them like a bug

[Thermodolia]

Because we won the war. If we hadn't won the war the US never would have existed.

by that logic ISIS was, for at least a couple of years, a sovereign nation then, right? They declared Independence, They took over the lands. (the fact that this supposed independence lasted at best a couple years is irrelevant in this case).

They didn't win the war they where in. The US did.

[Benuty]

Congratulations to the Catalans for gaining the independence they rightfully earned

They haven't gained anything. They just declared it, which means absolutely nothing if Spain squashes them like a bug

They have gained something though for example if Spain does crush them like a bug then it pretty much proves the secessionists right about Spain.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Yeah, it is illegal. Almost every independence in history was illegal. That doesn't make them wrong. Something being legal or illegal is purely a matter of what's written down on the books. Whether it is right or wrong is another matter entirely.

You're explicitly wrong. A Declaration of Independence is only illegal if there is legislation declaring that such things are illegal. Like there is in the Spanish Constitution. In this matter, what the law is and what right and wrong are the same.

The Catalan authorities are in the wrong for holding an illegal referendum and then for illegally declaring independence.

What article of the Spanish constitution explicitly forbids independence? If you could show that...

And, no. You are wrong. The legality principle states that a nation can only take those actions prescribed by law. Because the action was not prescribed, it is illegal.

[Ralshia]

On the one hand, Catalonia does have a moral argument if most of them really want to leave Spain. On the other hand, they'll never get any international recognition. Europe has many separatist movements, so they will probably not want it to spread. Spain is also a strategically valuable NATO member, so the US won't support Catalonia either.

[Minoa]

As it stands right now, I am unable to back either side now given how disorderly and messed up it has become.

[The Widening Gyre]

They haven't gained anything. They just declared it, which means absolutely nothing if Spain squashes them like a bug

They have gained something though for example if Spain does crush them like a bug then it pretty much proves the secessionists right about Spain.

And considering this whole issue escalated from a dispute over tax-sharing provisions in the Statute of the Catalonian government 10 years ago, when the separatists could barely pull 30% support, it also demonstrates how completely Rajoy and the PPP have managed to continually make the situation worse and worse.

[The Archregimancy]

They haven't gained anything. They just declared it, which means absolutely nothing if Spain squashes them like a bug

They have gained something though for example if Spain does crush them like a bug then it pretty much proves the secessionists right about Spain.

No doubt Jefferson Davis thought much the same.

What article of the Spanish constitution explicitly forbids independence? If you could show that...

Article / Section 2, which recognises the right of the regions to autonomy, but which also specifies that the Spanish nation is 'indissoluble'.

In the official English translation:

Section 2

The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.

http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/esp ... minar.aspx


En Castellano:

Artículo 2. Unidad de la Nación y derecho a la autonomía

La Constitución se fundamenta en la indisoluble unidad de la Nación española, patria común e indivisible de todos los españoles, y reconoce y garantiza el derecho a la autonomía de las nacionalidades y regiones que la integran y la solidaridad entre todas ellas.

http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/espana/leyf ... minar.aspx

[Thermodolia]

On the one hand, Catalonia does have a moral argument if most of them really want to leave Spain. On the other hand, they'll never get any international recognition. Europe has many separatist movements, so they will probably not want it to spread. Spain is also a strategically valuable NATO member, so the US won't support Catalonia either.

The US, UK, Ukraine, Germany, France, and Lithuania have all come out against Catalonia.

[Sovaal]

Congratulations to the Catalans for gaining the independence they rightfully earned

They haven't earned it yet.

[Sovaal]

As it stands right now, I am unable to back either side now given how disorderly and messed up it has become.

Welcome to irl, everything's a mess.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

On the one hand, Catalonia does have a moral argument if most of them really want to leave Spain. On the other hand, they'll never get any international recognition. Europe has many separatist movements, so they will probably not want it to spread. Spain is also a strategically valuable NATO member, so the US won't support Catalonia either.

The US, UK, Ukraine, Germany, France, and Lithuania have all come out against Catalonia.

There's no love lost between the UK and Spain. Gibraltar still comes up more than it should in naval "disputes" and Spain was vocal about blocking Scotland from the EU if it did become independent.

Ironically Spain was vocal then because they were afraid of Catalan noises about independence.

[Lady Scylla]

Yes. At the time when we declared independence it was highly illegal. But we won and that's all that matters

no it was not. America didn't become an independent nation because of winning a war. it was because the international community decided to accept their claim for it.

Erm, no. Not many were open to accepting the US in case of getting Britain's wrath, and even the French weren't willing to give their support until the Americans were able to prove they might have a chance of winning.

[Trumptonium]

You're explicitly wrong. A Declaration of Independence is only illegal if there is legislation declaring that such things are illegal. Like there is in the Spanish Constitution. In this matter, what the law is and what right and wrong are the same.

The Catalan authorities are in the wrong for holding an illegal referendum and then for illegally declaring independence.

What article of the Spanish constitution explicitly forbids independence? If you could show that...

And, no. You are wrong. The legality principle states that a nation can only take those actions prescribed by law. Because the action was not prescribed, it is illegal.

Article 1.2 explicitly protects the territorial integrity of the Kingdom of Spain.

Unless the Republic of Catalonia proclaims to be a landless republic, it is in contradiction to the Spanish constitution.

[Lady Scylla]

UK won't recognise Catalonia, albeit some in Scotland have a different opinion

[Trumptonium]

So I see three options out of this

(least likely) Spain doesn't care or cedes and Catalonia becomes a state on life support, distanced from the UN, WTO, EU, OECD, IMF and WB where it will be vetoed from entrance. It won't be able to borrow any money, and whatever is left after the mass exodus of corporations from Catalonia (already mostly complete) will have to feed the state an insane amount of tax (with severe loopholes) in order to let the state have a functioning administration. Catalonia will be a backwater spiralling into poverty for years/decades before Catalonia develops working foreign relations with other countries and comes closer to Taiwan's position.

(50/50) Spain formally moves in to take control of the region, and the Catalans rebel with their government encouraging public resistance, with either violence or lethal violence. We see Spain descend into Adventures of Marxist Catalonia 2: Electric Boogaloo before winning. Spain will either maintain support from the EU and the international community (likely) and crush the Catalans or lose support from the EU (unlikely) and thus descend into a more centralised and Francoist form of government to become self-reliant.

(most likely) Nobody cares about Catalonia or their woes, Spain takes formal central control of the region, it won't regain any form of autonomy or representation for at least the next decade or two and/or the Spanish state will become increasingly centralised and ruled from Madrid. Whatever is left of Catalonia's support will mostly be limited to protests and Twitter posts, and their leaders will be arrested. Come Christmas we'll all forget this ever happened and independence movements in Europe will die out quickly. The corporate exodus from Catalonia will continue, and their status as Spain's economic powerhouse will quickly disappear. Already around 2 in 5 companies have left Catalonia, including all seven of Catalonia's largest companies that were listed on the Spanish stock market moving away to Madrid. Catalonia will either lose their status because of business being naturally unsupportive of uncertainty, or the Spanish government actively encouraging the draining of resources from Catalonia to the point that Spain won't mind losing the region because it's economically irrelevant. Catalonia becomes perpetually poorer

All in all, I see about a 95% chance that regardless of what happens from this point on, Catalans will become poorer each year, both in wealth and in income. They pulled a huge lose-win here.

[Tinhampton]

As it stands right now, I am unable to back either side now given how disorderly and messed up it has become.

Essentially this... although I am only supporting Spain myself due to their constitutional structures prohibiting this sort of shit. At least an independent Catalonia was a fun ride while it lasted.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

UK won't recognise Catalonia, albeit some in Scotland have a different opinion

Oh hey, Boris Johnson said something without demeaning or insulting anyone.

Well done Boris. He's growing up so fast.

[Vassenor]

UK won't recognise Catalonia, albeit some in Scotland have a different opinion

Oh hey, Boris Johnson said something without demeaning or insulting anyone.

Well done Boris. He's growing up so fast.

Check the footage and make sure someone didn't have him on a leash.

[Vivolkha]

Things look rough for Catalonia. We seem to be heading to an unrecognized state - if Spain allows it, that is, which is extremely unlikely (at least under PP rule). So as of now, even immediate future is uncertain. If Spain manages to impose direct rule over Catalonia (likely to happen), we might be looking forward to some kind of oppresion.
No matter what happens tough, Spain is really in need of political reforms.

[Pasong Tirad]

Just found out. Damn, I didn't think they'd actually do it. I can almost hear the tanks rolling through Barcelona.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Whelp, Rajoy just dissolved their parliament. Now we see how many tanks it takes to arrest a revolution.

[Pilarcraft]

Spain is hilarious, lmoa.
like a rebellious state is gonna just dissolve its government because they said so.
I wonder how this ends up, though.

[Lady Scylla]

So when can we start singing this?

Disclaimer: Not a communist, just a catchy song.