Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Aellex]

If something like Catalonia collapses the world economy and the EU, then the world economy is freaking fragile and maybe should make itself more damn stable.

Daily reminder that something like the subprime mortgages was enough to collapse the world economy back in 2008.

[Yasuragi]

If something like Catalonia collapses the world economy and the EU, then the world economy is freaking fragile and maybe should make itself more damn stable.

Easier said than done.

Also, the fragility or strength of the world economy doesn't excuse Catalonia from the consequences of their action. People blame bankers for subprime mortages; no reason we can't hold a grudge against Catalans if they cause the next Great Recession.

[Corrian]

Also a good way of avoiding all of this mess in the first place? Not suppressing a vote in a democratic country would have been a start. And as it would have likely gone, a majority wouldn't have wanted to leave anyway (And is still up for debate). And you just deem it unconstitutional, and there's that. At least people had their vote. Even if they try and pass, you just call it unconstitutional. Hell, the majority WANTED a vote, even if they didn't want to vote to leave. So suppressing that vote looks bad all around. Literally attacking people for voting was pretty much the start of all of this.

Also one way to avoid problems IF THEY LEAVE, instead of making things worse and collapsing everything, is to negotiate with them on that deb thing, and quickly get them in the EU if they want to. Don't want to do that? Not our fault you crash the world economy and destroy your own EU.

[Pilarcraft]

Also a good way of avoiding all of this mess in the first place? Not suppressing a vote in a democratic country would have been a start. And as it would have likely gone, a majority wouldn't have wanted to leave anyway (And is still up for debate). And you just deem it unconstitutional, and there's that. At least people had their vote. Even if they try and pass, you just call it unconstitutional. Hell, the majority WANTED a vote, even if they didn't want to vote to leave. So suppressing that vote looks bad all around. Literally attacking people for voting was pretty much the start of all of this.

Also one way to avoid problems IF THEY LEAVE, instead of making things worse and collapsing everything, is to negotiate with them on that deb thing, and quickly get them in the EU if they want to. Don't want to do that? Not our fault you crash the world economy and destroy your own EU.

completely agree, to be honest.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Also a good way of avoiding all of this mess in the first place? Not suppressing a vote in a democratic country would have been a start. And as it would have likely gone, a majority wouldn't have wanted to leave anyway (And is still up for debate). And you just deem it unconstitutional, and there's that. At least people had their vote. Even if they try and pass, you just call it unconstitutional. Hell, the majority WANTED a vote, even if they didn't want to vote to leave. So suppressing that vote looks bad all around. Literally attacking people for voting was pretty much the start of all of this.

Also one way to avoid problems IF THEY LEAVE, instead of making things worse and collapsing everything, is to negotiate with them on that deb thing, and quickly get them in the EU if they want to. Don't want to do that? Not our fault you crash the world economy and destroy your own EU.

Indeed. But Rajoy needed to pump his approval ratings, thus the Day of the Jackboot.

[Thermodolia]

And simultaneously usually collapse the entire EU. I'm sure that's something they didn't expect to happen when they voted. And they are no longer apart of the EU

To be fair, as a so called 'EU-citizen' I wouldn't mind the EU collapsing all that much. It has become more of a trouble than worth as of late. But yes, the Catalans will be out of the EU but I'm sure they'll re-apply for the EU fairly soon when/if the independence gets truly realized.

They won't get it. Spain, and the rest of the EU, especially France, will veto any application

[Thermodolia]

Also Spain officially controls all of Catalonia, as article 155 has been enacted.

Thing is, the moment a state declares independence, the law of the former state it was part of no longer applies, as was ruled in the Kosovo case.

Doesn't matter as strictly speaking legally Catalonia has no legal right to independence. So legally speaking Catalonia is Spanish

[Thermodolia]

Also a good way of avoiding all of this mess in the first place? Not suppressing a vote in a democratic country would have been a start. And as it would have likely gone, a majority wouldn't have wanted to leave anyway (And is still up for debate). And you just deem it unconstitutional, and there's that. At least people had their vote. Even if they try and pass, you just call it unconstitutional. Hell, the majority WANTED a vote, even if they didn't want to vote to leave. So suppressing that vote looks bad all around. Literally attacking people for voting was pretty much the start of all of this.

Also one way to avoid problems IF THEY LEAVE, instead of making things worse and collapsing everything, is to negotiate with them on that deb thing, and quickly get them in the EU if they want to. Don't want to do that? Not our fault you crash the world economy and destroy your own EU.

One interesting note I found is that many Catalonians supported the idea of a federal state when presented with that option. They could have easily made Catalonia a federal state within Spain and give them the option to hold a referendum in the future

[Chessmistress]

It's actually going in the opposite direction: independentists are giving up.

Could you elaborate?

I could, but it's no longer the case: I was wrong.
Catalunya is a state, right now.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

Thing is, the moment a state declares independence, the law of the former state it was part of no longer applies, as was ruled in the Kosovo case.

Doesn't matter as strictly speaking legally Catalonia has no legal right to independence. So legally speaking Catalonia is Spanish

You mean to say the declaration of independence was illegal?

Surely not?

I wonder what other independence declarations were illegal...Hopefully the Americans can help me out with that one.

[The East Marches II]

Doesn't matter as strictly speaking legally Catalonia has no legal right to independence. So legally speaking Catalonia is Spanish

You mean to say the declaration of independence was illegal?

Surely not?

I wonder what other independence declarations were illegal...Hopefully the Americans can help me out with that one.

We won it with the bayonet. Now lets see if the Catalans will put up or shut up

[Aellex]

We won it with the bayonet. Now lets see if the Catalans will put up or shut up

I mean, if the Spaniards can't manage to, we would be glad to "restore order" in the Département de Catalogne. :^)

[G-Tech Corporation]

Doesn't matter as strictly speaking legally Catalonia has no legal right to independence. So legally speaking Catalonia is Spanish

You mean to say the declaration of independence was illegal?

Surely not?

I wonder what other independence declarations were illegal...Hopefully the Americans can help me out with that one.

America's DoI was super illegal. There were reasons the Founding Fathers joked about hanging separately or all together.

Of course, national law rarely says "its totally cool, everyone can leave if they want to".

[Lady Scylla]

Catalan Parliament declares independence at 70-10, whilst Spain votes to impose direct rule -- a measure the Catalan government said they'd ignore in the past.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Doesn't matter as strictly speaking legally Catalonia has no legal right to independence. So legally speaking Catalonia is Spanish

You mean to say the declaration of independence was illegal?

Surely not?

I wonder what other independence declarations were illegal...Hopefully the Americans can help me out with that one.

Yeah, it is illegal. Almost every independence in history was illegal. That doesn't make them wrong. Something being legal or illegal is purely a matter of what's written down on the books. Whether it is right or wrong is another matter entirely.

[Tananat]

You mean to say the declaration of independence was illegal?

Surely not?

I wonder what other independence declarations were illegal...Hopefully the Americans can help me out with that one.

Yeah, it is illegal. Almost every independence in history was illegal. That doesn't make them wrong. Something being legal or illegal is purely a matter of what's written down on the books. Whether it is right or wrong is another matter entirely.

You're explicitly wrong. A Declaration of Independence is only illegal if there is legislation declaring that such things are illegal. Like there is in the Spanish Constitution. In this matter, what the law is and what right and wrong are the same.

The Catalan authorities are in the wrong for holding an illegal referendum and then for illegally declaring independence.

[The Archregimancy]

You mean to say the declaration of independence was illegal?

Surely not?

I wonder what other independence declarations were illegal...Hopefully the Americans can help me out with that one.

Yeah, it is illegal. Almost every independence in history was illegal. That doesn't make them wrong. Something being legal or illegal is purely a matter of what's written down on the books. Whether it is right or wrong is another matter entirely.

Broadly agreeing, because legality is decided by the winners.

The secession of the United States from Great Britain was legally justified not by the Declaration of Independence, but because the colonies won.

The secession of the Confederate States from the United States wasn't legally justified not because of any finer point of constitutional law, but because the Confederacy lost.

'Winning' and 'losing' in these cases need not be defined by violence, of course; but where one of the parties disputes the legality of the secession and is prepared to use force, then legality will be decided by victory, however defined.

The Spanish constitution is explicit that secession is illegal, and I'm on record in this thread as supporting the constitution over secession; but should Catalonia succeed in breaking away, then it will be on the basis of finding some legal justification of its own in opposition to that constitution, which will be retrospectively accepted by the international community. Legality will ultimately be defined by the 'winner'.

[Thermodolia]

Doesn't matter as strictly speaking legally Catalonia has no legal right to independence. So legally speaking Catalonia is Spanish

You mean to say the declaration of independence was illegal?

Surely not?

I wonder what other independence declarations were illegal...Hopefully the Americans can help me out with that one.

Yes. At the time when we declared independence it was highly illegal. But we won and that's all that matters

[Mad hatters in jeans]

Yeah, it is illegal. Almost every independence in history was illegal. That doesn't make them wrong. Something being legal or illegal is purely a matter of what's written down on the books. Whether it is right or wrong is another matter entirely.

Broadly agreeing, because legality is decided by the winners.

The secession of the United States from Great Britain was legally justified not by the Declaration of Independence, but because the colonies won.

The secession of the Confederate States from the United States wasn't legally justified not because of any finer point of constitutional law, but because the Confederacy lost.

'Winning' and 'losing' in these cases need not be defined by violence, of course; but where one of the parties disputes the legality of the secession and is prepared to use force, then legality will be decided by victory, however defined.

I was being rhetorical but this is nice to read all the same.

[Thermodolia]

We won it with the bayonet. Now lets see if the Catalans will put up or shut up

I mean, if the Spaniards can't manage to, we would be glad to "restore order" in the Département de Catalogne. :^)

Mandatory French classes when?

[Pilarcraft]

You mean to say the declaration of independence was illegal?

Surely not?

I wonder what other independence declarations were illegal...Hopefully the Americans can help me out with that one.

Yes. At the time when we declared independence it was highly illegal. But we won and that's all that matters

no it was not. America didn't become an independent nation because of winning a war. it was because the international community decided to accept their claim for it.

[Thermodolia]

Yes. At the time when we declared independence it was highly illegal. But we won and that's all that matters

no it was not. America didn't become an independent nation because of winning a war. it was because the international community decided to accept their claim for it.

Because we won the war. If we hadn't won the war the US never would have existed.

[Vistulange]

Yes. At the time when we declared independence it was highly illegal. But we won and that's all that matters

no it was not. America didn't become an independent nation because of winning a war. it was because the international community decided to accept their claim for it.

It's not exactly possible to talk about "legality" in the context of pre-1933, because we didn't really have anything defining what constituted a state, or what the conditions were for a state to become independent at the time, especially in the 18th century.

So, basically, might made right. The United States - or, at the time, the Thirteen Colonies - won the war and the already-existing states acknowledged the fact. To say that the United States "fulfilled" the Montevideo Convention's criteria, or the ones established by the Arbitration Commission on Yugoslavia, would be anachronistic.

[Pilarcraft]

no it was not. America didn't become an independent nation because of winning a war. it was because the international community decided to accept their claim for it.

Because we won the war. If we hadn't won the war the US never would have existed.

by that logic ISIS was, for at least a couple of years, a sovereign nation then, right? They declared Independence, They took over the lands. (the fact that this supposed independence lasted at best a couple years is irrelevant in this case).

[Aellex]

Mandatory French classes when?

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