Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Thermodolia]

I... was being sarcastic. Of course they knew it'd collapse. My problem is with Madrid's significant skill in diplomacy. you'd think this was the Napoleon era from what those idiots were doing.

Madrid was right. You do not negotiate with the rebels and seditious.

They could learn a few things from the French though

[Vistulange]

Instead of getting involved in a screaming contest, I will utter two things.

The Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States (1933), and the Arbitration Commission of the Peace Conference on Yugoslavia (1991).

While the Montevideo Convention is important, recent legal practise has shown that the declaratory theory of statehood doesn't place enough value with recognition by other states. Look at Palestine, for instance: a state according to the Convention and with a lot of recognition from other states, but not accepted because it lacks official UN membership. Even then, the Montevideo Criteria might not be met, because Spain officially controls the foreign policy of the Catalans. It's an interesting discussion to have, but simply posting the Montevideo Criteria won't be enough to prove Catalan statehood.

Yes, that is my point. I wasn't arguing in favour of either, I was pointing out the two legal documents which are the international norms for determining what states are and how they are formed.

Actually, Montevideo does tell us that Catalonia is a state. However, the Arbitration Commission goes against it, since Spain has not disappeared as a sovereign entity, nor has it relinquished sovereignty over Catalonia.

[Pilarcraft]

I... was being sarcastic. Of course they knew it'd collapse. My problem is with Madrid's significant skill in diplomacy. you'd think this was the Napoleon era from what those idiots were doing.

I bet you a lot of money that they had no clue that they'd, 1) be out of the EU, and 2) be the cause of the collapse of the EU and a possible world wide depression

considering the fact that the EU had already denounced any form of secession before the referendum, the possibility they didn't know they'd be out of EU, at least for now, is minimal. about a possible world-wide depression? nope. bullshit. won't happen.

[Thermodolia]

Instead of getting involved in a screaming contest, I will utter two things.

The Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States (1933), and the Arbitration Commission of the Peace Conference on Yugoslavia (1991).

While the Montevideo Convention is important, recent legal practise has shown that the declaratory theory of statehood doesn't place enough value with recognition by other states. Look at Palestine, for instance: a state according to the Convention and with a lot of recognition from other states, but not accepted because it lacks official UN membership. Even then, the Montevideo Criteria might not be met, because Spain officially controls the foreign policy of the Catalans. It's an interesting discussion to have, but simply posting the Montevideo Criteria won't be enough to prove Catalan statehood.

Also Spain officially controls all of Catalonia, as article 155 has been enacted.

[Thermodolia]

Madrid was right. You do not negotiate with the rebels and seditious.

In the modern world, as long as it's not reached a violent, militant level of fighting, negotiation is exactly what you do. at least in civilized places. not sure how it's done in DPRK or similarly barbaric states, but in the Civilized World, that's exactly what you do.

France would say fuck off to any independence movement. Negotiation isn't something that's found on the continent

[Vistulange]

While the Montevideo Convention is important, recent legal practise has shown that the declaratory theory of statehood doesn't place enough value with recognition by other states. Look at Palestine, for instance: a state according to the Convention and with a lot of recognition from other states, but not accepted because it lacks official UN membership. Even then, the Montevideo Criteria might not be met, because Spain officially controls the foreign policy of the Catalans. It's an interesting discussion to have, but simply posting the Montevideo Criteria won't be enough to prove Catalan statehood.

Also Spain officially controls all of Catalonia, as article 155 has been enacted.

It's more of a sovereignty issue, rather than "control", which is a different thing.

It's different than the whole Scottish referendum, because had the Scottish referendum passed, it was expected that the United Kingdom would relinquish sovereignty over Scotland, thereby fulfilling (one) requirement of being a state according to the Arbitration Commission. If we look at Montevideo, both cases can be considered eligible for statehood, but the Arbitration Commission set new precedents in international law.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

While the Montevideo Convention is important, recent legal practise has shown that the declaratory theory of statehood doesn't place enough value with recognition by other states. Look at Palestine, for instance: a state according to the Convention and with a lot of recognition from other states, but not accepted because it lacks official UN membership. Even then, the Montevideo Criteria might not be met, because Spain officially controls the foreign policy of the Catalans. It's an interesting discussion to have, but simply posting the Montevideo Criteria won't be enough to prove Catalan statehood.

Yes, that is my point. I wasn't arguing in favour of either, I was pointing out the two legal documents which are the international norms for determining what states are and how they are formed.

Actually, Montevideo does tell us that Catalonia is a state. However, the Arbitration Commission goes against it, since Spain has not disappeared as a sovereign entity, nor has it relinquished sovereignty over Catalonia.

No, because as I said, the capability to enter into foreign relations has not been fulfilled. That's the whole question: does Catalonia have the legal capacity to enter into foreign relations? That has to be shown through practise. And even then, they certainly lack an element of recognition for all intents and purposes.

[Thermodolia]

I bet you a lot of money that they had no clue that they'd, 1) be out of the EU, and 2) be the cause of the collapse of the EU and a possible world wide depression

considering the fact that the EU had already denounced any form of secession before the referendum, the possibility they didn't know they'd be out of EU, at least for now, is minimal. about a possible world-wide depression? nope. bullshit. won't happen.

A world wide depression is the worst case scenario. It's not of the realm of possibility.

All it takes is Catalonia refusing to pay its share of the Spanish debt. Spain who now has 100% of the debt and just lost a huge chunk of its economy defaults. This starts a chain reaction that hits every other poor EU nation, and if Italy goes the EU goes with it. And if the EU suddenly defaults the world will face a depression

[Thermodolia]

Yes, that is my point. I wasn't arguing in favour of either, I was pointing out the two legal documents which are the international norms for determining what states are and how they are formed.

Actually, Montevideo does tell us that Catalonia is a state. However, the Arbitration Commission goes against it, since Spain has not disappeared as a sovereign entity, nor has it relinquished sovereignty over Catalonia.

No, because as I said, the capability to enter into foreign relations has not been fulfilled. That's the whole question: does Catalonia have the legal capacity to enter into foreign relations? That has to be shown through practise. And even then, they certainly lack an element of recognition for all intents and purposes.

Catalonia doesn't have the legal capability to do anything. The central government legally directly controls Catalonia

[Vistulange]

Yes, that is my point. I wasn't arguing in favour of either, I was pointing out the two legal documents which are the international norms for determining what states are and how they are formed.

Actually, Montevideo does tell us that Catalonia is a state. However, the Arbitration Commission goes against it, since Spain has not disappeared as a sovereign entity, nor has it relinquished sovereignty over Catalonia.

No, because as I said, the capability to enter into foreign relations has not been fulfilled. That's the whole question: does Catalonia have the legal capacity to enter into foreign relations? That has to be shown through practise. And even then, they certainly lack an element of recognition for all intents and purposes.

The issue of recognition gets murky at times, and it's an inherently political criteria. Where do we put Kosovo, for example? We don't have any classification for what constitutes "recognition".

As for the capacity to enter into foreign relations, it's not exactly clear whether or not this is legal capability, or physical capability. If the former, you're certainly right; but if it's the latter, it's definitely something murky.

[Aellex]

In the modern world, as long as it's not reached a violent, militant level of fighting, negotiation is exactly what you do. at least in civilized places. not sure how it's done in DPRK or similarly barbaric states, but in the Civilized World, that's exactly what you do.

No. You tell the rebels to fuck off and crush them if they do not, you don't "negotiate" and even less acknowledge them.

[Pilarcraft]

In the modern world, as long as it's not reached a violent, militant level of fighting, negotiation is exactly what you do. at least in civilized places. not sure how it's done in DPRK or similarly barbaric states, but in the Civilized World, that's exactly what you do.

No. You tell the rebels to fuck off and crush them if they do not, you don't "negotiate" and even less acknowledge them.

that's in DPRK, and otherwise backwards backwater tribes, bruh, not countries belonging to the modern age. Did you miss the Civilized Part? let me bold it for you

[G-Tech Corporation]

No, because as I said, the capability to enter into foreign relations has not been fulfilled. That's the whole question: does Catalonia have the legal capacity to enter into foreign relations? That has to be shown through practise. And even then, they certainly lack an element of recognition for all intents and purposes.

Catalonia doesn't have the legal capability to do anything. The central government legally directly controls Catalonia

Ehh, not really. Independence was declared prior to the triggering of that article; as such, Catalonia was not a part of Spain at the time of the revocation of autonomy, and, legally, Spain's legislature had no and has no ability to impose rule on a region which is not a part of it. From the standpoint of national sovereignty, it would be like Germany declaring Austria to be annexed through legislature- one cannot legislate about the sovereignty of an entity which is not part of one's national body.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

While the Montevideo Convention is important, recent legal practise has shown that the declaratory theory of statehood doesn't place enough value with recognition by other states. Look at Palestine, for instance: a state according to the Convention and with a lot of recognition from other states, but not accepted because it lacks official UN membership. Even then, the Montevideo Criteria might not be met, because Spain officially controls the foreign policy of the Catalans. It's an interesting discussion to have, but simply posting the Montevideo Criteria won't be enough to prove Catalan statehood.

Also Spain officially controls all of Catalonia, as article 155 has been enacted.

Well, article 155 or no, Spain officially controls Catalonia, if you follow the letter of the law. After all, there is no constitutional procedure for independence in Spain. Whether they have effective control is what's important now, as that effective control is an important gauge for independence. The coming days will have to show us how the practise develops.

No, because as I said, the capability to enter into foreign relations has not been fulfilled. That's the whole question: does Catalonia have the legal capacity to enter into foreign relations? That has to be shown through practise. And even then, they certainly lack an element of recognition for all intents and purposes.

Catalonia doesn't have the legal capability to do anything. The central government legally directly controls Catalonia

Yes, that was my point. Which is why I said we now have to look at the practise.

[Thermodolia]

No. You tell the rebels to fuck off and crush them if they do not, you don't "negotiate" and even less acknowledge them.

that's in DPRK, and otherwise backwards backwater tribes, bruh, not countries belonging to the modern age. Did you miss the Civilized Part? let me bold it for you

So I guess France, the US, and most of the European continent aren't civilized according to some random Internet person

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Catalonia doesn't have the legal capability to do anything. The central government legally directly controls Catalonia

Ehh, not really. Independence was declared prior to the triggering of that article; as such, Catalonia was not a part of Spain at the time of the revocation of autonomy, and, legally, Spain's legislature had no and has no ability to impose rule on a region which is not a part of it. From the standpoint of national sovereignty, it would be like Germany declaring Austria to be annexed through legislature- one cannot legislate about the sovereignty of an entity which is not part of one's national body.

Well, that's not entirely true, either. Catalonia has no legal capability to declare independence. So, from a purely literal, legal standpoint, Catalonia never stopped being a part of Spain, and as such the invoked article 155 is legal. However, this is one of those cases where the letter of the law and the practise of law split, and while the letter of the law is important, we shouldn't lose sight of what is practically happening.

[Thermodolia]

Catalonia doesn't have the legal capability to do anything. The central government legally directly controls Catalonia

Ehh, not really. Independence was declared prior to the triggering of that article; as such, Catalonia was not a part of Spain at the time of the revocation of autonomy, and, legally, Spain's legislature had no and has no ability to impose rule on a region which is not a part of it. From the standpoint of national sovereignty, it would be like Germany declaring Austria to be annexed through legislature- one cannot legislate about the sovereignty of an entity which is not part of one's national body.

Nope. Legally there is no constitutional procedure for independence. They can't legally declare independence which still makes them Spain and therefore the Spanish government still legally controls them.

[Pilarcraft]

that's in DPRK, and otherwise backwards backwater tribes, bruh, not countries belonging to the modern age. Did you miss the Civilized Part? let me bold it for you

So I guess France, the US, and most of the European continent aren't civilized according to some random Internet person

yes. pretty much. I didn't think it was that difficult a concept that "crushing rebels" is pretty much a concept that doesn't belong to any time after 1980.

[Lord of The Rings]

I wish the Catalans the best with well earned their new state. Let's hope it will be able to resist any aggressive moves from Spain and that it may become the country they fought for.

And simultaneously usually collapse the entire EU. I'm sure that's something they didn't expect to happen when they voted. And they are no longer apart of the EU

To be fair, as a so called 'EU-citizen' I wouldn't mind the EU collapsing all that much. It has become more of a trouble than worth as of late. But yes, the Catalans will be out of the EU but I'm sure they'll re-apply for the EU fairly soon when/if the independence gets truly realized.

[Lord of The Rings]

While the Montevideo Convention is important, recent legal practise has shown that the declaratory theory of statehood doesn't place enough value with recognition by other states. Look at Palestine, for instance: a state according to the Convention and with a lot of recognition from other states, but not accepted because it lacks official UN membership. Even then, the Montevideo Criteria might not be met, because Spain officially controls the foreign policy of the Catalans. It's an interesting discussion to have, but simply posting the Montevideo Criteria won't be enough to prove Catalan statehood.

Also Spain officially controls all of Catalonia, as article 155 has been enacted.

Thing is, the moment a state declares independence, the law of the former state it was part of no longer applies, as was ruled in the Kosovo case.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Ehh, not really. Independence was declared prior to the triggering of that article; as such, Catalonia was not a part of Spain at the time of the revocation of autonomy, and, legally, Spain's legislature had no and has no ability to impose rule on a region which is not a part of it. From the standpoint of national sovereignty, it would be like Germany declaring Austria to be annexed through legislature- one cannot legislate about the sovereignty of an entity which is not part of one's national body.

Well, that's not entirely true, either. Catalonia has no legal capability to declare independence. So, from a purely literal, legal standpoint, Catalonia never stopped being a part of Spain, and as such the invoked article 155 is legal. However, this is one of those cases where the letter of the law and the practise of law split, and while the letter of the law is important, we shouldn't lose sight of what is practically happening.

Under Spanish national law, certainly that is the case; the unwritten law of the popular mandate and self-determination argues for an ability to declare independence regardless of any lack of recourse in the Spanish constitution, though. Insofar as independence was declared, Catalonia was removed from any need to comply with Spanish national law, being, as may be expected, no longer part of Spain.

Ehh, not really. Independence was declared prior to the triggering of that article; as such, Catalonia was not a part of Spain at the time of the revocation of autonomy, and, legally, Spain's legislature had no and has no ability to impose rule on a region which is not a part of it. From the standpoint of national sovereignty, it would be like Germany declaring Austria to be annexed through legislature- one cannot legislate about the sovereignty of an entity which is not part of one's national body.

Nope. Legally there is no constitutional procedure for independence. They can't legally declare independence which still makes them Spain and therefore the Spanish government still legally controls them.

Sure- if you argue that the only law which can be applied to Catalonia is a law which they have abrogated. In truth, it could be argued that Spain's failure to provide a mechanism for independence means the mechanism defaults to that of self-determination, which becomes far more murky, but it is valid to assert that Catalonia has fulfilled.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

No, because as I said, the capability to enter into foreign relations has not been fulfilled. That's the whole question: does Catalonia have the legal capacity to enter into foreign relations? That has to be shown through practise. And even then, they certainly lack an element of recognition for all intents and purposes.

The issue of recognition gets murky at times, and it's an inherently political criteria. Where do we put Kosovo, for example? We don't have any classification for what constitutes "recognition".

As for the capacity to enter into foreign relations, it's not exactly clear whether or not this is legal capability, or physical capability. If the former, you're certainly right; but if it's the latter, it's definitely something murky.

I'd say it's a mixture. For example, Texas has the physical capability to enter into foreign relations, but isn't a sovereign state because it has no legal capacity. Palestina has the legal capacity and the physical capacity, but is ignored in practise. At least, by a small number of non-recognising nations. I'd agree that Palestina is a state, legally, but a court in my nation would probably deem otherwise.

As for the recognition, what constitutes a recognition has been determined over the years. However, how many recognitions makes a sovereign state is still unclear, indeed. That's something the UN should sort out, if the security council wasn't as useless as it is.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Also Spain officially controls all of Catalonia, as article 155 has been enacted.

Thing is, the moment a state declares independence, the law of the former state it was part of no longer applies, as was ruled in the Kosovo case.

Do you have a link to that case? Because as far as I know, unilateral declarations of independence have never been accepted as binding in international law.

Well, that's not entirely true, either. Catalonia has no legal capability to declare independence. So, from a purely literal, legal standpoint, Catalonia never stopped being a part of Spain, and as such the invoked article 155 is legal. However, this is one of those cases where the letter of the law and the practise of law split, and while the letter of the law is important, we shouldn't lose sight of what is practically happening.

Under Spanish national law, certainly that is the case; the unwritten law of the popular mandate and self-determination argues for an ability to declare independence regardless of any lack of recourse in the Spanish constitution, though. Insofar as independence was declared, Catalonia was removed from any need to comply with Spanish national law, being, as may be expected, no longer part of Spain.

Nope. Legally there is no constitutional procedure for independence. They can't legally declare independence which still makes them Spain and therefore the Spanish government still legally controls them.

Sure- if you argue that the only law which can be applied to Catalonia is a law which they have abrogated. In truth, it could be argued that Spain's failure to provide a mechanism for independence means the mechanism defaults to that of self-determination, which becomes far more murky, but it is valid to assert that Catalonia has fulfilled.

Well, there is a problem. Unwritten law. Spain is a nation with civil law, meaning unwritten legal principles are not as powerful in Spain as in other countries. Certainly when a written document says otherwise. From a legal interpretation standpoint, we have to ask ourselves the question: if Spain wanted a road to independence in their country, why didn't they add it to their constitution? The most straightforward conclusion to draw is that they didn't, hence it's absence. Then, we'd have to find a higher source of law from which to draw the right to popular sovereignty. International law is higher than constitutional law, so perhaps there is some unwritten right in there. However, there isn't. Unwritten international law is made by international acceptance of practise, and so far, the practise of unilateral declarations of independence has not been internationally accepted, hence there is no international law stating that this is at all legal.

That is not to say that the Catalans don't have a moral right to their independence, which they certainly do. However, that does not make this particular decision of their parliament binding. What I wrote above is a purely legal assessment of the situation. Like I said, practise and law should be looked at both together and separately.

[Corrian]

If something like Catalonia collapses the world economy and the EU, then the world economy is freaking fragile and maybe should make itself more damn stable.

[The East Marches II]

If something like Catalonia collapses the world economy and the EU, then the world economy is freaking fragile and maybe should make itself more damn stable.

That would be a good objective yes.