Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Thermodolia]

for the first part.
As for the second, how do France protect her neo-colonial empire? Well, we do a lot from military intervention be it indirect (like the mercenaries and rebels group, hum, I meant like the "democratic oppositions" we sponsor and support to make sure there are always friends of France in power) or direct (like in Mali a couple of years ago during which we make sure the aforementioned friends stay in power ) passing by a tight-grip on the local economy (we have control of their money and our companies are in a situation of almost total monopoly) and a cultural assimilation of their elites.
Françafrique was a successful transition of Colonialism to the modern world, Britain could have probably managed to achieve something similar but sadly she was a little too over-eager to liquidate her colonial empire.

sigh Why do we have this sort of imperialism in the 21st century? And how was liquidating the British Empire a bad thing?

I don't know about but imperialism is pretty damn awesome

[Pasong Tirad]

Unless this somehow segues to how Catalonia is a colony of the Spanish Empire, then it probably deserves another thread (which I'd recommend, actually - this talk of imperialism might be a good discussion).

[Aellex]

sigh Why do we have this sort of imperialism in the 21st century? And how was liquidating the British Empire a bad thing?

Because it's profitable for everyone involved?
To quote the words of one our dear "friend" there : "Africa without France is a car without driver, France without Africa is a car without fuel." :^)

[MERIZoC]

First, I'm part-French so with the exception of my lack of knowledge about la Francophonie you're preaching to the choir. But since you insist on comparing Britain; The large amount of la Francophonie members doesn't exactly stack-up when some of them aren't real countries *cough*Quebec*cough*, are also part of the Commonwealth, or are in Eastern Europe. How does France protect its neo-colonial empire? Britain sank a cruiser, France sank the Rainbow Warrior.

for the first part.
As for the second, how do France protect her neo-colonial empire? Well, we do a lot from military intervention be it indirect (like the mercenaries and rebels group, hum, I meant like the "democratic oppositions" we sponsor and support to make sure there are always friends of France in power) or direct (like in Mali a couple of years ago during which we make sure the aforementioned friends stay in power ) passing by a tight-grip on the local economy (we have control of their money and our companies are in a situation of almost total monopoly) and a cultural assimilation of their elites.

Peak of French arrogance to be proud of the retainment of colonial empire. None of these things are good. The CFA Franc is an awful concept that only constrains individual country's macroeconomic freedoms, which anyone who looks at Greece can tell you is a bad thing. France has financed coups and counter-coups that have only brought needless bloodshed, and the French business monopoly over industry in Francafrique has allowed for corruption and kickbacks for the global elite.

You get mad when called racist but your bigotry and complete lack of regard for non-whites is pretty plain to see.

[Aellex]

Peak of French arrogance to be proud of the retainment of colonial empire. None of these things are good. The CFA Franc is an awful concept that only constrains individual country's macroeconomic freedoms, which anyone who looks at Greece can tell you is a bad thing. France has financed coups and counter-coups that have only brought needless bloodshed, and the French business monopoly over industry in Francafrique has allowed for corruption and kickbacks for the global elite.

You get mad when called racist but your bigotry and complete lack of regard for non-whites is pretty plain to see.

All of these things are good for everyone involved, tho. :^)

Also,
>"I-it's racist and bigoted to support Imperialism and it means you hate non-whites "
Well, at that point it's just so sad and pathetic there is little else I can say but "lol no".

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Peak of French arrogance to be proud of the retainment of colonial empire. None of these things are good. The CFA Franc is an awful concept that only constrains individual country's macroeconomic freedoms, which anyone who looks at Greece can tell you is a bad thing. France has financed coups and counter-coups that have only brought needless bloodshed, and the French business monopoly over industry in Francafrique has allowed for corruption and kickbacks for the global elite.

You get mad when called racist but your bigotry and complete lack of regard for non-whites is pretty plain to see.

All of these things are good for everyone involved, tho. :^)

Also,
>"I-it's racist and bigoted to support Imperialism and it means you hate non-whites "
Well, at that point it's just so sad and pathetic there is little else I can say but "lol no".

Yeah, you're condoning the repression of the decolonisation movement, especially in Algeria. That makes you seem even worse than the Spanish government having the police beat up non-violent voters in Catalonia's "referendum" (I don't really give a fuck whether Catalonia separates or not, I just wanted it to be so they could actually hold a democratic referendum)

[Aellex]

Yeah, you're condoning the repression of the decolonisation movement, especially in Algeria. That makes you seem even worse than the Spanish government having the police beat up non-violent voters in Catalonia's "referendum" (I don't really give a fuck whether Catalonia separates or not, I just wanted it to be so they could actually hold a democratic referendum)

I condone armed rebels who slaughter civilians for not supporting them being put down indeed and since you're mentioning Algeria (tho why you are, I'm not sure since it's rather unrelated to what we're discussing) I'm condoning children and women torturers and murderers getting their due too for when rebels start to act disgustingly, they shouldn't be surprised it sparks an interest in the use of the Gégène. :^)

And I do not care how it "makes me looks like" to support Imperialism given I only care about the results and the greater good unlike you bleeding-hearts decolonisators who just want the best P.R possible regardless of the consequences.

Anyway, Spain doesn't have to give a shit about how your feelings or what you wanted to happen.
The referendum was unconstitutional, they thus had every right and reason to crack down on it.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Yeah, you're condoning the repression of the decolonisation movement, especially in Algeria. That makes you seem even worse than the Spanish government having the police beat up non-violent voters in Catalonia's "referendum" (I don't really give a fuck whether Catalonia separates or not, I just wanted it to be so they could actually hold a democratic referendum)

I condone armed rebels who slaughter civilians for not supporting them being put down indeed and since you're mentioning Algeria (tho why you are, I'm not sure since it's rather unrelated to what we're discussing) I'm condoning children and women torturers and murderers getting their due too for when rebels start to act disgustingly, they shouldn't be surprised it sparks an interest in the use of the Gégène. :^)

And I do not care how it "makes me looks like" to support Imperialism given I only care about the results and the greater good unlike you bleeding-hearts decolonisators who just want the best P.R possible regardless of the consequences.

Anyway, Spain doesn't have to give a shit about how your feelings or what you wanted to happen.
The referendum was unconstitutional, they thus had every right and reason to crack down on it.

"The greater good" - What would you say should be the end goal of a government? (I would say it should be maximum happiness and minimum suffering for everyone)

Also, modern cases of imperialism are illegal under international law, such as Russia annexing Crimea. And for Catalonia, the Spanish government could just refuse to respect the results, not beat up innocent people.

[The East Marches II]

I condone armed rebels who slaughter civilians for not supporting them being put down indeed and since you're mentioning Algeria (tho why you are, I'm not sure since it's rather unrelated to what we're discussing) I'm condoning children and women torturers and murderers getting their due too for when rebels start to act disgustingly, they shouldn't be surprised it sparks an interest in the use of the Gégène. :^)

And I do not care how it "makes me looks like" to support Imperialism given I only care about the results and the greater good unlike you bleeding-hearts decolonisators who just want the best P.R possible regardless of the consequences.

Anyway, Spain doesn't have to give a shit about how your feelings or what you wanted to happen.
The referendum was unconstitutional, they thus had every right and reason to crack down on it.

"The greater good" - What would you say should be the end goal of a government? (I would say it should be maximum happiness and minimum suffering for everyone)

Also, modern cases of imperialism are illegal under international law, such as Russia annexing Crimea. And for Catalonia, the Spanish government could just refuse to respect the results, not beat up innocent people.

>taking international law seriously

That's for small skrub countries.

[Bakery Hill]

"The greater good" - What would you say should be the end goal of a government? (I would say it should be maximum happiness and minimum suffering for everyone)

Also, modern cases of imperialism are illegal under international law, such as Russia annexing Crimea. And for Catalonia, the Spanish government could just refuse to respect the results, not beat up innocent people.

>taking international law seriously

That's for small skrub countries.

The Athenians had a great insight into international law. Something about a little place called Melos?

[Aellex]

"The greater good" - What would you say should be the end goal of a government? (I would say it should be maximum happiness and minimum suffering for everyone)

The end goal of a government is to serve best the State and the end goal of the State is to uphold the best interests of Its citizens. Happiness and minimum suffering are that way better ensured than if they had been the main goal to begin with.

Also, modern cases of imperialism are illegal under international law, such as Russia annexing Crimea. And for Catalonia, the Spanish government could just refuse to respect the results, not beat up innocent people.

>implying anyone actually care about international law except when it's strategically relevant to use it to bludgeon an enemy with

Also, no. Once more, Spain was right to react rather than stand aside for a display of pusillanimity would have only been an admission of weakness.
No one remember a beating after a couple of years but an humiliation, an humiliation that no one ever forget.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

"The greater good" - What would you say should be the end goal of a government? (I would say it should be maximum happiness and minimum suffering for everyone)

The end goal of a government is to serve best the State and the end goal of the State is to uphold the best interests of Its citizens. Happiness and minimum suffering are that way better ensured than if they had been the main goal to begin with.

Also, modern cases of imperialism are illegal under international law, such as Russia annexing Crimea. And for Catalonia, the Spanish government could just refuse to respect the results, not beat up innocent people.

>implying anyone actually care about international law except when it's strategically relevant to use it to bludgeon an enemy with

Also, no. Once more, Spain was right to react rather than stand aside for a display of pusillanimity would have only been an admission of weakness.
No one remember a beating after a couple of years but an humiliation, an humiliation that no one ever forget.

Which is worse; humiliation or blatant authoritarianism?

Also, international law exists to protect human rights and global peace.

[Bakery Hill]

The end goal of a government is to serve best the State and the end goal of the State is to uphold the best interests of Its citizens. Happiness and minimum suffering are that way better ensured than if they had been the main goal to begin with.

>implying anyone actually care about international law except when it's strategically relevant to use it to bludgeon an enemy with

Also, no. Once more, Spain was right to react rather than stand aside for a display of pusillanimity would have only been an admission of weakness.
No one remember a beating after a couple of years but an humiliation, an humiliation that no one ever forget.

Which is worse; humiliation or blatant authoritarianism?

Also, international law exists to protect human rights and global peace.

You keep eating that up sport.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

for the first part.
As for the second, how do France protect her neo-colonial empire? Well, we do a lot from military intervention be it indirect (like the mercenaries and rebels group, hum, I meant like the "democratic oppositions" we sponsor and support to make sure there are always friends of France in power) or direct (like in Mali a couple of years ago during which we make sure the aforementioned friends stay in power ) passing by a tight-grip on the local economy (we have control of their money and our companies are in a situation of almost total monopoly) and a cultural assimilation of their elites.

Peak of French arrogance to be proud of the retainment of colonial empire. None of these things are good. The CFA Franc is an awful concept that only constrains individual country's macroeconomic freedoms, which anyone who looks at Greece can tell you is a bad thing. France has financed coups and counter-coups that have only brought needless bloodshed, and the French business monopoly over industry in Francafrique has allowed for corruption and kickbacks for the global elite.

You get mad when called racist but your bigotry and complete lack of regard for non-whites is pretty plain to see.

Also, in the 1980s French agents blew up a Greenpeace ship in New Zealand. Of all the shit they could blow up, a ship dedicated to environmental protection.

[Aellex]

Which is worse; humiliation or blatant authoritarianism?

Dunno but what I know is what is best and it's ensuring the well-being of the State and the Constitution.

Also, international law exists to protect human rights and global peace.

Oh wait, you're serious...

[Catlander]

Latest news

Rajoy wants to terminate with Catalonia'n goverment, Puigdemont is ready to fire the Independence button. The time will finnish at Friday afternoon.

BUT TOMORROW AT 17 PM (GMT +1) THE MATCH ONE VS ONE IN THE PARLIAMENT OF MADRID !

What will happen with them?

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Which is worse; humiliation or blatant authoritarianism?

Dunno but what I know is what is best and it's ensuring the well-being of the State and the Constitution.

Also, international law exists to protect human rights and global peace.

Oh wait, you're serious...

Humiliation does not violate anyone's human rights; authoritarianism does

[Aellex]

Humiliation does not violate anyone's human rights; authoritarianism does

You've moved the goals-posts so far I'm not even sure what you're trying to do anymore.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Have a question: How does imperialism benefit anyone in the 21st century?

[Sovaal]

Have a question: How does imperialism benefit anyone in the 21st century?

I mean, I'm all for self determination and such, but is this really imperialism? Was the American civil war imperialism as well?

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Have a question: How does imperialism benefit anyone in the 21st century?

I mean, I'm all for self determination and such, but is this really imperialism? Was the American civil war imperialism as well?

Aellex was condoning the actions of the French colonial empire

[Aellex]

Have a question: How does imperialism benefit anyone in the 21st century?

I will repeat Omar Bongo's quote because I think it sums the situation perfectly. "Africa without France is like a car without a driver. France without Africa is like a car without fuel."
The relationship born of imperialism is symbiotic and mutually beneficial. It gives people in desperate need of a frame benevolent administrators to help them develop themselves and it gives the aforementioned administrators an easier access to resources they lack of. Everyone wins.

[Aellex]

Aellex was condoning the actions of the French colonial empire

No. Well, yes in general, tho in that particular discussion the subject was Françafrique.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Aellex was condoning the actions of the French colonial empire

No. Well, yes in general, tho in that particular discussion the subject was Françafrique.

So, you're condoning the violent suppression of the independence movement in Algeria. Wow, you're almost as bad as the Chinese government's attitude to Tibetan separatism (they actually have the death penalty for that - I mean WTF, I don't even agree with the death penalty full stop)

[Tananat]

Have a question: How does imperialism benefit anyone in the 21st century?

Probably a question for its own topic tbh.