Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Sovaal]

I don't think the international community would appreciate Spain trying to assert it's dominance in Andorra.

One can wonder why Catalan bishops prefered Kings of Navarre and then France as co-rulers, rather than rulers of Aragon or Castile...or later Spain.

What I want to know is why did the position the French king held got passed to the President.

[Phoenicaea]

One can wonder why Catalan bishops prefered Kings of Navarre and then France as co-rulers, rather than rulers of Aragon or Castile...or later Spain.

What I want to know is why did the position the French king held got passed to the President.

Thing is deep rooted, a first answer could it be: apart the mantained centralization held by the Revolutionnaries (to uphold against feudal blackash, and to cover the unity of France) -which leans toward unlimited faculty of the executive;
the other thing to be the free tenancy of Parliament (the right for Deputies to do whatever) was installed since it was the expression of Parliament sovereignity, in the same way the absence of pouvoir restrictvis (limits) for the Etats General (feudal parliament) had been the same before, since the King wished to be legitimated through the feudal parliament of everything doing, facing greater nobles.
This "absolute" legagy of Parliament required an office which could grant it, as like the King granted it to the tri-partite nation before, so the President representing France embraced national absolute legitimation to transferr it to Parliament.
In xix xx centuries, along with industrialization and mass society (Toqueville describes it in details how in which steps and why) this executive role finally overflowed with the legislative detriment.

It was a mean to gather an unitarian (a monism) legitimation so that it could be "given" to a full sovereignity, all legitimated Parliament.
This passage answered at this need of legitimation which was percieved as unrenouncable.

[Polvatsiya]

Catalonia is cancelled

[Socialist Czechia]

One can wonder why Catalan bishops prefered Kings of Navarre and then France as co-rulers, rather than rulers of Aragon or Castile...or later Spain.

What I want to know is why did the position the French king held got passed to the President.

Macron is the only President in the world having privilege to be also reigning monarch Emmanuel I., the (Co-)Prince of Andorra.
But as I said, Andorra is very much independent Catalan state, so if I really hated Madrid now, as a Catalonian, I could move just there, with Andorran valleys protected by the French Republic.

[Farnhamia]

One can wonder why Catalan bishops prefered Kings of Navarre and then France as co-rulers, rather than rulers of Aragon or Castile...or later Spain.

What I want to know is why did the position the French king held got passed to the President.

It goes back to a deal between the Bishop of Urgell and the French Count of Foix to keep Andorra out of the hands of the Count of Urgell (whose ancestor had given it to a previous bishop). Anyway, eventually the title of Count of Foix merged with the French Crown, in the 1600s. After the First and Second French Empires it fell to the French head of state to take the place of the King. Something like that.

[Pasong Tirad]

What I want to know is why did the position the French king held got passed to the President.

Macron is the only President in the world having privilege to be also reigning monarch Emmanuel I., the (Co-)Prince of Andorra.
But as I said, Andorra is very much independent Catalan state, so if I really hated Madrid now, as a Catalonian, I could move just there, with Andorran valleys protected by the French Republic.

AND the Catholic Church in Catalonia. With Versaille and the Pope, I'm surprised Andorra isn't an emerging superpower.

[Socialist Czechia]

Macron is the only President in the world having privilege to be also reigning monarch Emmanuel I., the (Co-)Prince of Andorra.
But as I said, Andorra is very much independent Catalan state, so if I really hated Madrid now, as a Catalonian, I could move just there, with Andorran valleys protected by the French Republic.

AND the Catholic Church in Catalonia. With Versaille and the Pope, I'm surprised Andorra isn't an emerging superpower.

Yeah, but French president have more tanks and warships to convince Spaniards if necessary

[Greed and Death]

So it appears the central govnerment has canceled the Catalonia local govnerment. Next step will likely be the Catalonia govnerment ignoring the order and issuing a full declaration of independence. Then clashes between local and national police forces and finally military fighting likely countered with mobs of people seizing arsenals.

This is going to be a bloody mess. How tragic.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

So it appears the central govnerment has canceled the Catalonia local govnerment. Next step will likely be the Catalonia govnerment ignoring the order and issuing a full declaration of independence. Then clashes between local and national police forces and finally military fighting likely countered with mobs of people seizing arsenals.

This is going to be a bloody mess. How tragic.

That's one off my list. Up next on Operation This is for the Boys in Grey: Quebec.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

What I want to know is why did the position the French king held got passed to the President.

It goes back to a deal between the Bishop of Urgell and the French Count of Foix to keep Andorra out of the hands of the Count of Urgell (whose ancestor had given it to a previous bishop). Anyway, eventually the title of Count of Foix merged with the French Crown, in the 1600s. After the First and Second French Empires it fell to the French head of state to take the place of the King. Something like that.

Spanish history is quite the soap opera. *nod*

[Thermodolia]

So it appears the central govnerment has canceled the Catalonia local govnerment. Next step will likely be the Catalonia govnerment ignoring the order and issuing a full declaration of independence. Then clashes between local and national police forces and finally military fighting likely countered with mobs of people seizing arsenals.

This is going to be a bloody mess. How tragic.

Well apparently elections are supposed to be happening soon

[Pasong Tirad]

So it appears the central govnerment has canceled the Catalonia local govnerment. Next step will likely be the Catalonia govnerment ignoring the order and issuing a full declaration of independence. Then clashes between local and national police forces and finally military fighting likely countered with mobs of people seizing arsenals.

This is going to be a bloody mess. How tragic.

Well apparently elections are supposed to be happening soon

Some Catalans leaders have apparently rejected the idea of holding new elections.

Honestly, Rajoy's doing them a favor. Imposing direct rule on Catalonia would only fuel more resentment for Madrid and drive more people to the pro-independence camp (or, at least, the pro-autonomy/regionalism camp).

[Greed and Death]

Well apparently elections are supposed to be happening soon

Some Catalans leaders have apparently rejected the idea of holding new elections.

Honestly, Rajoy's doing them a favor. Imposing direct rule on Catalonia would only fuel more resentment for Madrid and drive more people to the pro-independence camp (or, at least, the pro-autonomy/regionalism camp).

This was Spain's event to lose and they are proceeding in the only manner that might result in Catalonia independence.

[Farnhamia]

Some Catalans leaders have apparently rejected the idea of holding new elections.

Honestly, Rajoy's doing them a favor. Imposing direct rule on Catalonia would only fuel more resentment for Madrid and drive more people to the pro-independence camp (or, at least, the pro-autonomy/regionalism camp).

This was Spain's event to lose and they are proceeding in the only manner that might result in Catalonia independence.

This could be the equivalent of blowing a 15 point lead in the last five minutes of the game.

[Greed and Death]

This was Spain's event to lose and they are proceeding in the only manner that might result in Catalonia independence.

This could be the equivalent of blowing a 15 point lead in the last five minutes of the game.

If they had just did what the UK did in the face of Scottish Independent movements. Promised greater anatomy and held a legal official poll. This would have been over and done with.

[Yagon]

It goes back to a deal between the Bishop of Urgell and the French Count of Foix to keep Andorra out of the hands of the Count of Urgell (whose ancestor had given it to a previous bishop). Anyway, eventually the title of Count of Foix merged with the French Crown, in the 1600s. After the First and Second French Empires it fell to the French head of state to take the place of the King. Something like that.

I'm guessing this is true, but it still sounds like dialogue from Black Adder to me.

[Yagon]

If they had just did what the UK did in the face of Scottish Independent movements. Promised greater anatomy and held a legal official poll. This would have been over and done with.

I wish I had greater anatomy.

[Socialist Czechia]

i don't know if Rajoy is so stupid or Spaniards so ignorant altogether.

let's imagine, that 155 stuff is imposed in full, Spaniards see no resistance, no one take arms, Puigdemont is in jail as much as everyone around him, Mossos are cuckolded by Guardia Civil and new elections will win...separatist parties.
And this time, like, 80-85%. Massive demonstrations and violence growing every week more. More chaos in entire Spain, and so far content Euskadis and Galicians will start making serious problems too.

what is Rajoy supposed to do then? officially ban democratic elections in Catalonia for decades? and continue as such with other autonomous regions?

yeah, let's impose direct rule by force in rebellious regions, nothing can go wrong...

[Pasong Tirad]

i don't know if Rajoy is so stupid or Spaniards so ignorant altogether.

let's imagine, that 155 stuff is imposed in full, Spaniards see no resistance, no one take arms, Puigdemont is in jail as much as everyone around him, Mossos are cuckolded by Guardia Civil and new elections will win...separatist parties.
And this time, like, 80-85%. Massive demonstrations and violence growing every week more. More chaos in entire Spain, and so far content Euskadis and Galicians will start making serious problems too.

what is Rajoy supposed to do then? officially ban democratic elections in Catalonia for decades? and continue as such with other autonomous regions?

yeah, let's impose direct rule by force in rebellious regions, nothing can go wrong...

I don't know about the Galicians, but I'm sure the Basque (who just ended a rebellion like 6 years ago) would have a word or two to say about Madrid's actions.

[Aellex]

If they had just did what the UK did in the face of Scottish Independent movements. Promised greater anatomy and held a legal official poll. This would have been over and done with.

No, you don't give recognition to the seditious and separatists. You only crush them with the full extent of the law. The Constitution forbid declaration of independence therefore no such thing can be even considered to be allowed.

And, if anything, the way the U.K and Canada dealt with Scotland and Québec (especially the later which was only a hair away from actually seceding) only reinforced the standing and legitimacy of the nationalists parties.

[Polvatsiya]

So it appears the central govnerment has canceled the Catalonia local govnerment. Next step will likely be the Catalonia govnerment ignoring the order and issuing a full declaration of independence. Then clashes between local and national police forces and finally military fighting likely countered with mobs of people seizing arsenals.

This is going to be a bloody mess. How tragic.

Well apparently elections are supposed to be happening soon

I heard that the opposition in Spain supported Rajoy's recent decisions.

[The Archregimancy]

This could be the equivalent of blowing a 15 point lead in the last five minutes of the game.

If they had just did what the UK did in the face of Scottish Independent movements. Promised greater anatomy and held a legal official poll.

A legal official referendum following a national constitutional convention designed to find grounds for compromise between the centre and regions and resulting amendment of the constitution might well have worked.

But I'm not sure how greater anatomy fits into this. Are we proposing giving Puigdemont an extra arm?

(sorry)

[Socialist Czechia]

And, if anything, the way the U.K and Canada dealt with Scotland and Québec (especially the later which was only a hair away from actually seceding) only reinforced the standing and legitimacy of the nationalists parties.

We both know that New France and Catalogne deserves only one rightful protectors and (co-)rulers.

[Aellex]

We both know that New France and Catalogne deserves only one rightful protectors and (co-)rulers.

Troisième Empire naow pls. I swear we will be gud bois this time.

[Drusselstein]

No. Catalonia should remain part of Spain. The justifications presented by separatists are insufficient and empty. Just ask them, “Why should Catalonia be an independent state?”