Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Pasong Tirad]

The trouble, really, is that voter turnout was likely heavily depressed due to the Spanish government declaring the referendum illegal, and making every effort up to and including physical violence to prevent people from voting. In such circumstances it seems axiomatic that a significant proportion of the voting public that were pro-referendum but somewhat less than fervent in their need to vote would have stayed home.

However, a different reading is that the people who are against the referendum did not recognise the referendum as legal, and therefore did not come out to vote. At this stage, it is impossible to guess what the results of a 'real' referendum would have been. That is the problem with the referendum as it played out: there are several different readings one can do of the facts, and none can be definitively proven. I think we should disregard the outcome of the referendum because its outcome was not achieved under optimal conditions. That is not to say that the Catalans don't deserve a proper referendum and their independence, which I wholeheartedly believe, but this referendum is not an argument in favour of independence.

As for the issue of legality; while self-governance is a right of any people, it should be achieved via the most legal means possible in a state. Natural law to self-determination does not give someone a free pass from all a nation's laws, only those that directly contradict their wish for independence.

Apologies, my personal biases for regionalism and the upholding of the right of all peoples to self-determination might also be getting in the way of seeing Madrid's actions as anything but wrong. Because, really, all of Catalonia's troubles can easily be solved if only Madrid wasn't so obstinate in making sure Catalans aren't allowed to decide what their future is, whether or not rhat future is to remain with the rest of Spain.

I've said it before a couple dozen or so pages back: I believe that if the referendum was given the green light by Madrid, Catalans would, in my opinion, would prefer to maintain the status quo and vote to stay with Spain because polls have put the two sides almost evenly split down the middle, fluctuating here and there like a dial.

[Tananat]

The lawfulness is relevant, as any referendum held without changing the law is and will continue to be illegitimate, regardless of turnout.

Catalans have been polled to consistently and overwhelmingly want a referendum. The legality isn't as relevant as you think when Catalans see self-determination as their inalienable right.

The legality is massively relevant as regardless of public opinion, secession from the Spanish state is outlawed under their constitution. The only way to change this would be to amend the law or challenge it in the European Courts. It doesn't actually matter what Catalans think, despite this being about them.

[Pasong Tirad]

Catalans have been polled to consistently and overwhelmingly want a referendum. The legality isn't as relevant as you think when Catalans see self-determination as their inalienable right.

The legality is massively relevant as regardless of public opinion, secession from the Spanish state is outlawed under their constitution. The only way to change this would be to amend the law or challenge it in the European Courts. It doesn't actually matter what Catalans think, despite this being about them.

I'd like to know how you can even begin to think that what Catalans want isn't important. This is their future we're talking about, here. The legality of the situation comes secondary to the desires of the Catalans, and the Catalans - both pro-independence and pro-unionists alike - want a referendum, to settle the question once and for all. The right to determine your future is an integral part of human rights and any law that tries to oppress a people's basic human right to self-determination is a law that deserves to be broken. Human rights are universal and inalienable and Europe's deafening silence to this denial of a basic human right is disgusting.

[Tananat]

The legality is massively relevant as regardless of public opinion, secession from the Spanish state is outlawed under their constitution. The only way to change this would be to amend the law or challenge it in the European Courts. It doesn't actually matter what Catalans think, despite this being about them.

I'd like to know how you can even begin to think that what Catalans want isn't important.

It isn't important because the law as it currently stands says so. The solution to that is change or challenge the law. And if the Catalan government weren't playing chicken in an effort to get increased autonomy they'd have already done so or would be attempting to, instead of crying about repression.

[Dooom35796821595]

I'd like to know how you can even begin to think that what Catalans want isn't important.

It isn't important because the law as it currently stands says so. The solution to that is change or challenge the law. And if the Catalan government weren't playing chicken in an effort to get increased autonomy they'd have already done so or would be attempting to, instead of crying about repression.

You can't change a law without a majority, something Catalonia dosen't have in the Spanish parliament. A well known problem with democracy is majority mob rule. If they truly want independence they'll have to fight for it.

[Tananat]

It isn't important because the law as it currently stands says so. The solution to that is change or challenge the law. And if the Catalan government weren't playing chicken in an effort to get increased autonomy they'd have already done so or would be attempting to, instead of crying about repression.

You can't change a law without a majority, something Catalonia dosen't have in the Spanish parliament. A well known problem with democracy is majority mob rule. If they truly want independence they'll have to fight for it.

Or challenge it in the European Courts. If a law is found to be incompatible with European human rights law it must be changed. Spain's constitutional law may well do just that - if they were serious about independence they'd do it.

[Myfanwyski]

There is all this talk of it being illegal according to the constitution - but the constitution ballot seems to have been built on sand anyway.

If wikipedia is anything to go by

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_c ... ndum,_1978

it seems to have a few issues and I should imagine that debate was as skewed as uk's eec ballot in 1975.

Each individual clause wasn't verified independently within the vote either - so no justification can be drawn on the electorate's consent on things (such as the eternal indivisibility nonsense) at that time.

Just my ponderings as Spain seems to be going down the wrong path - the war war rather than jaw jaw route(metaphor) - some small concessions would have probably have resolved it - but now other bones of contention may bubble up - the basques for one.

just some ignorant musings.

[Pasong Tirad]

I'd like to know how you can even begin to think that what Catalans want isn't important.

It isn't important because the law as it currently stands says so. The solution to that is change or challenge the law. And if the Catalan government weren't playing chicken in an effort to get increased autonomy they'd have already done so or would be attempting to, instead of crying about repression.

They did challenge the law. They broke it because it was a law that didn't respect their right to self-determination. Granted, Puigdemont shouldn't have done shit if 50% + 1 of the population didn't vote for independence, but it was still a challenge nonetheless.

And just in case you didn't see it, I wrote more:

... This is their future we're talking about, here. The legality of the situation comes secondary to the desires of the Catalans, and the Catalans - both pro-independence and pro-unionists alike - want a referendum, to settle the question once and for all. The right to determine your future is an integral part of human rights and any law that tries to oppress a people's basic human right to self-determination is a law that deserves to be broken. Human rights are universal and inalienable and Europe's deafening silence to this denial of a basic human right is disgusting.

[Tananat]

It isn't important because the law as it currently stands says so. The solution to that is change or challenge the law. And if the Catalan government weren't playing chicken in an effort to get increased autonomy they'd have already done so or would be attempting to, instead of crying about repression.

They did challenge the law. They broke it because it was a law that didn't respect their right to self-determination. Granted, Puigdemont shouldn't have done shit if 50% + 1 of the population didn't vote for independence, but it was still a challenge nonetheless.

That's clearly not what I meant and you know it. Breaking the law isn't an actual challenge to it, it's just a breakage of the law. If they're so sure it breaches their inalienable right to self-determination they should challenge that law in the European Courts - which is an option they've had for years.

And I didn't reply to the rest of your post because like I said, with the law as it is, it's irrelevant.

[Socialist Czechia]

As peaceful solution is not possible, time to declare independent state unilaterally and without support to provoke much more violent crackdown and maybe, just maybe, destabilize the entire Spain and make it so very international problem. Only way to force others to care.

a las barricadas.

[New Dumnezeu]

I think Catalonia shouldn't be independent. They historically were a part of Spain. Most of the people in Catalonia (if not all) can speak Spanish well. Also, they have autonomy. They have their own parliament, which is a very special thing considering they are a region of Spain.

[NeuPolska]

As peaceful solution is not possible, time to declare independent state unilaterally and without support to provoke much more violent crackdown and maybe, just maybe, destabilize the entire Spain and make it so very international problem. Only way to force others to care.

a las barricadas.

Yes, let's not rest with simply fucking Spain up, let's fuck all of Europe up too. You know what, fuck the whole world up, because a few thousand people have a problem with authority. Who cares about the men, women, and children who get caught in the crossfire.

[Socialist Czechia]

As peaceful solution is not possible, time to declare independent state unilaterally and without support to provoke much more violent crackdown and maybe, just maybe, destabilize the entire Spain and make it so very international problem. Only way to force others to care.

a las barricadas.

Yes, let's not rest with simply fucking Spain up, let's fuck all of Europe up too. You know what, fuck the whole world up, because a few thousand people have a problem with authority. Who cares about the men, women, and children who get caught in the crossfire.

Like a few millions. Besides, who says that self-determination is limited by numbers?
Why are Andorra or Lichtenstein left alone? Or these piles of Caribbean and Pacific island states?

[Pasong Tirad]

They did challenge the law. They broke it because it was a law that didn't respect their right to self-determination. Granted, Puigdemont shouldn't have done shit if 50% + 1 of the population didn't vote for independence, but it was still a challenge nonetheless.

That's clearly not what I meant and you know it. Breaking the law isn't an actual challenge to it, it's just a breakage of the law. If they're so sure it breaches their inalienable right to self-determination they should challenge that law in the European Courts - which is an option they've had for years.

And I didn't reply to the rest of your post because like I said, with the law as it is, it's irrelevant.

To break a law that refuses to recognize self-determination is a challenge to that law. While you're right in that the Courts are a valid option, you are, however, so so so wrong in not responding to a large part of my post because you don't deem it revelant because of Spanish law. That's bogus. It's the opposite of saying what the rest of Spain wants is irrelevant because it's a Catalan problem. All of Spain is concerned here, and there are other regionalist entities in Spain that consider themselves to be not just Spanish, but also Catalan, Basque, Valencian, Andalusian, Galician and I could go on.

[Tananat]

That's clearly not what I meant and you know it. Breaking the law isn't an actual challenge to it, it's just a breakage of the law. If they're so sure it breaches their inalienable right to self-determination they should challenge that law in the European Courts - which is an option they've had for years.

And I didn't reply to the rest of your post because like I said, with the law as it is, it's irrelevant.

To break a law that refuses to recognize self-determination is a challenge to that law. While you're right in that the Courts are a valid option, you are, however, so so so wrong in not responding to a large part of my post because you don't deem it revelant because of Spanish law. That's bogus. It's the opposite of saying what the rest of Spain wants is irrelevant because it's a Catalan problem. All of Spain is concerned here, and there are other regionalist entities in Spain that consider themselves to be not just Spanish, but also Catalan, Basque, Valencian, Andalusian, Galician and I could go on.

You've made the argument that the legality of the situation is secondary to the desires of Catalans. That is wrong, and thus irrelevant. In this issue, the law is first, last and only thing that actually matters. Spains constitutional law prevents secession. Changing that law either through legislation or the courts is the only legitimate recourse that Catalan separatists have. Holding votes of dubious reliability in the face of the law and a court order is not a legitimate action and will never be a legitimate action, regardless of whatever moralistic argument one wishes to make about the feelings of Catalans.

[Socialist Czechia]

Technically, isn't Andorra actual independent Catalonian state, I mean, sovereign state ruled and governed by Catalans?

[Pasong Tirad]

To break a law that refuses to recognize self-determination is a challenge to that law. While you're right in that the Courts are a valid option, you are, however, so so so wrong in not responding to a large part of my post because you don't deem it revelant because of Spanish law. That's bogus. It's the opposite of saying what the rest of Spain wants is irrelevant because it's a Catalan problem. All of Spain is concerned here, and there are other regionalist entities in Spain that consider themselves to be not just Spanish, but also Catalan, Basque, Valencian, Andalusian, Galician and I could go on.

You've made the argument that the legality of the situation is secondary to the desires of Catalans. That is wrong, and thus irrelevant. In this issue, the law is first, last and only thing that actually matters. Spains constitutional law prevents secession. Changing that law either through legislation or the courts is the only legitimate recourse that Catalan separatists have. Holding votes of dubious reliability in the face of the law and a court order is not a legitimate action and will never be a legitimate action, regardless of whatever moralistic argument one wishes to make about the feelings of Catalans.

And I've argued that the law is secondary when the popular will of the Catalan people is that they want a referendum to decide the issue. It doesn't even have to be a binding referendum, just one that can gauge whether secession is a possibility. The Spanish constitution isn't going to matter if the Catalan people refuse to recognize themselves as Spanish and as beholden to Spanish law. Your overly legalist interpretation of the issue and refusal to acknowledge the desires of the Catalan people is in effect the same reason why many independentists aren't too fond of Madrid right now: it's a refusal to acknowledge that Catalan wants are different from the wants of the rest of Spain. It's a refusal to acknowledge that basic human rights trump whatever constitution Spain has and, as was pointed out, the constitution itself isn't built on very stable ground (although, i have to admit that I'm not as knowledgeable on Spanish law).

[Pasong Tirad]

Technically, isn't Andorra actual independent Catalonian state, I mean, sovereign state ruled and governed by Catalans?

(Image)

A Catalan Bishop and a French President walk into the Pyrenees...

[Sovaal]

Technically, isn't Andorra actual independent Catalonian state, I mean, sovereign state ruled and governed by Catalans?

(Image)

I don't think the international community would appreciate Spain trying to assert it's dominance in Andorra.

[Socialist Czechia]

Technically, isn't Andorra actual independent Catalonian state, I mean, sovereign state ruled and governed by Catalans?

(Image)

I don't think the international community would appreciate Spain trying to assert it's dominance in Andorra.

One can wonder why Catalan bishops prefered Kings of Navarre and then France as co-rulers, rather than rulers of Aragon or Castile...or later Spain.

[Tananat]

You've made the argument that the legality of the situation is secondary to the desires of Catalans. That is wrong, and thus irrelevant. In this issue, the law is first, last and only thing that actually matters. Spains constitutional law prevents secession. Changing that law either through legislation or the courts is the only legitimate recourse that Catalan separatists have. Holding votes of dubious reliability in the face of the law and a court order is not a legitimate action and will never be a legitimate action, regardless of whatever moralistic argument one wishes to make about the feelings of Catalans.

And I've argued that the law is secondary when the popular will of the Catalan people is that they want a referendum to decide the issue. It doesn't even have to be a binding referendum, just one that can gauge whether secession is a possibility. The Spanish constitution isn't going to matter if the Catalan people refuse to recognize themselves as Spanish and as beholden to Spanish law. Your overly legalist interpretation of the issue and refusal to acknowledge the desires of the Catalan people is in effect the same reason why many independentists aren't too fond of Madrid right now: it's a refusal to acknowledge that Catalan wants are different from the wants of the rest of Spain. It's a refusal to acknowledge that basic human rights trump whatever constitution Spain has and, as was pointed out, the constitution itself isn't built on very stable ground (although, i have to admit that I'm not as knowledgeable on Spanish law).

The Spanish constitution is build on much more stable ground than the Catalan declaration of independence that they still won't say is in force or not. It was approved by 95% of Catalan voters at a much higher turnout than the 43% who allegedly voted in this referendum.

And my interpretation being 'overly legalistic' stems from that whole 'rule of law' thing that the Catalan authorities seem to have forgotten about. If they were serious and wanted legitimacy they'd challenge the constitution in European courts. But they aren't. They're playing a game of chicken that they will lose because they want more money - and fuck the other regions of Spain because language or something.

[Pasong Tirad]

And I've argued that the law is secondary when the popular will of the Catalan people is that they want a referendum to decide the issue. It doesn't even have to be a binding referendum, just one that can gauge whether secession is a possibility. The Spanish constitution isn't going to matter if the Catalan people refuse to recognize themselves as Spanish and as beholden to Spanish law. Your overly legalist interpretation of the issue and refusal to acknowledge the desires of the Catalan people is in effect the same reason why many independentists aren't too fond of Madrid right now: it's a refusal to acknowledge that Catalan wants are different from the wants of the rest of Spain. It's a refusal to acknowledge that basic human rights trump whatever constitution Spain has and, as was pointed out, the constitution itself isn't built on very stable ground (although, i have to admit that I'm not as knowledgeable on Spanish law).

The Spanish constitution is build on much more stable ground than the Catalan declaration of independence that they still won't say is in force or not. It was approved by 95% of Catalan voters at a much higher turnout than the 43% who allegedly voted in this referendum.

And my interpretation being 'overly legalistic' stems from that whole 'rule of law' thing that the Catalan authorities seem to have forgotten about. If they were serious and wanted legitimacy they'd challenge the constitution in European courts. But they aren't. They're playing a game of chicken that they will lose because they want more money - and fuck the other regions of Spain because language or something.

Well, coming from an anti-regionalist dictator like Franco, any alternative would have been a better alternative, so I'm not really surprised why more Catalans are split on this issue than they were in the constitutional referendum (which was approved omnibus-ly and with the basic assumption that "hey constitution or not, all of ya'll are Spanish, mmkay?")

Ah, yes, here we have it. "Rule of law," something authoritarians and tyrants of all political leanings agree should be respected, bar all consequences. That's why women shouldn't drive in Saudi Arabia, because it's the law. That's why Qatar can take your passport if you're a migrant worker and turn you into a slave in all but name, because it's the law. That's why Catalonia shouldn't be allowed to decide for itself what it wants for its future, because it's the law.

No it's more closely "fuck the other regions of Spain because it's not Catalonia" to which I'm sure we will agree is wrong, but not really the point.

[Tananat]

The Spanish constitution is build on much more stable ground than the Catalan declaration of independence that they still won't say is in force or not. It was approved by 95% of Catalan voters at a much higher turnout than the 43% who allegedly voted in this referendum.

And my interpretation being 'overly legalistic' stems from that whole 'rule of law' thing that the Catalan authorities seem to have forgotten about. If they were serious and wanted legitimacy they'd challenge the constitution in European courts. But they aren't. They're playing a game of chicken that they will lose because they want more money - and fuck the other regions of Spain because language or something.

Well, coming from an anti-regionalist dictator like Franco, any alternative would have been a better alternative, so I'm not really surprised why more Catalans are split on this issue than they were in the constitutional referendum (which was approved omnibus-ly and with the basic assumption that "hey constitution or not, all of ya'll are Spanish, mmkay?")

I mean the declaration of independence is literally based off of a referendum with 43% turnout if no irregularities occurred which is very unlikely, considering Spanish police seized the electoral roll prior to the vote and Catalan officials encouraged voters to vote anywhere and probably multiple times.

Ah, yes, here we have it. "Rule of law," something authoritarians and tyrants of all political leanings agree should be respected, bar all consequences. That's why women shouldn't drive in Saudi Arabia, because it's the law. That's why Qatar can take your passport if you're a migrant worker and turn you into a slave in all but name, because it's the law. That's why Catalonia shouldn't be allowed to decide for itself what it wants for its future, because it's the law.

There's a clear difference between the third example and the first two, but sure, you build that strawman.

[NeuPolska]

Yes, let's not rest with simply fucking Spain up, let's fuck all of Europe up too. You know what, fuck the whole world up, because a few thousand people have a problem with authority. Who cares about the men, women, and children who get caught in the crossfire.

Like a few millions. Besides, who says that self-determination is limited by numbers?
Why are Andorra or Lichtenstein left alone? Or these piles of Caribbean and Pacific island states?

Less than 50% of the Catalan people came out in support of independence, which was already an illegal action by the constitution. Saying that more than 50% support independence but didn't come out or weren't counted for x reason is speculation, not fact. Anyhow you're proposing violence in a region that doesn't even have the majority in support of independence, in order to gain independence. You will not succeed against the Spanish military, the only outcome is a bunch of dead bodies, rubble, and senseless violence. The Catalan aren't oppressed, they have plenty of autonomy as it is, so there's not even any moral reason for violence to begin with. All you're doing with a statement promoting violence like that is being a troublemaker/instigator.

[Pasong Tirad]

Well, coming from an anti-regionalist dictator like Franco, any alternative would have been a better alternative, so I'm not really surprised why more Catalans are split on this issue than they were in the constitutional referendum (which was approved omnibus-ly and with the basic assumption that "hey constitution or not, all of ya'll are Spanish, mmkay?")

I mean the declaration of independence is literally based off of a referendum with 43% turnout if no irregularities occurred which is very unlikely, considering Spanish police seized the electoral roll prior to the vote and Catalan officials encouraged voters to vote anywhere and probably multiple times.

Oh, yes. That much, I agree with. As I've mentioned in an above post, the Catalan government shouldn't have done anything if the turnout wasn't at least 50% + 1 of the registered voters. What I don't agree with is that they weren't allowed to have a referendum.

Ah, yes, here we have it. "Rule of law," something authoritarians and tyrants of all political leanings agree should be respected, bar all consequences. That's why women shouldn't drive in Saudi Arabia, because it's the law. That's why Qatar can take your passport if you're a migrant worker and turn you into a slave in all but name, because it's the law. That's why Catalonia shouldn't be allowed to decide for itself what it wants for its future, because it's the law.

There's a clear difference between the third example and the first two, but sure, you build that strawman.

Yes, because they were dealing with different fundamental human rights. But, still fundamental. No straw man anywhere.