Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[The of Japan]

The difference between Scotland and Catalonia is that Catalonia is absolutely indispensable to the Spanish economy and institutions, whereas Scotland is a fairly irrelevant speck of land that exercises it's ability to be very annoying at times.

and Spanish constitution bans secession referendums, and Spanish government are sharply opposed to any attempt at catalan independence. Scottish referendum happened because of British government approval.

[Catlander]

@New Greater Netherlands

Legal or illegal... good issue to talk.

Trump did legal that United States gov denies public money to poor's health insurance.

Otherwise slavery was legal till 'illegal platforms anti-slavery' fighted for the rights of the human beings.

The problem is not between legal or illegal... the problem is between right or not right. Often the law is right, but not ever!. Thus, will be the People who needs to fix the problem, sometimes with politician sometimes fighting by their own rights. f.i. Spartacus, Lincoln, M.L.King, Gandhi, Beauvoir, Mandela, Walęsa, Assange, etc.etc.

The sovereignity of the People ever is before the State managent (it would be ideal, of course). The people of catalonia we're recovering our own historical sovereignity lost in 1714 to do right laws.

[Dushan]

The people of catalonia we're recovering our own historical sovereignity lost in 1714 to do right laws.

Which they lost because they allied themself with the loosing side of the Spanish War of Sucession (House Habsburg) their rights were stripped by House Bourbon. So if thats the source of the grief, what if the current spanish government (respectively its Monarch who is actually a descendant and member of said House Bourbon) would restore the ancient rights of Catalonia that have been stripped in 1714, and if so what if those rights were to be restored?

Or would the newly independent Catalonia "import" a Habsburg on the to be established Throne?

[Midnight Indo]

At least undemocratic UK gave Scotland a ballot

Can you back up your claims?

Yes Catalonia is more than welcome to become the 51st state.
The rest of Europe can join later.

I nominate you for Thread Winner.

read the bloody Constitution, will ya?
https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?i ... 1978-31229

[SNIP]

ALL OF THOSE ARTICLES WERE APPROVED BY THE CATALAN ELECTORS IN A REFERENDUM.

Ima just translate those for ease

Article 2
The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards, and recognizes and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions that integrate it and solidarity between All of them.

Article 153

The control of the activity of the organs of the Autonomous Communities will be exercised:

a) By the Constitutional Court, the one related to the constitutionality of its normative provisions with force of law.

b) By the Government, following an opinion of the Council of State, the exercise of delegated functions referred to in Article 150 (2).

c) For the contentious-administrative jurisdiction, that of the autonomous administration and its regulatory rules.

d) By the Court of Auditors, the economic and budgetary.

Article 155

1. If an Autonomous Community does not comply with the obligations imposed by the Constitution or other laws or acts in a way that seriously undermines the general interest of Spain, the Government, upon request to the President of the Autonomous Community and, in in case of not being served, with the approval by an absolute majority of the Senate, may take the necessary measures to force the latter to enforce those obligations or to protect the said general interest.

2. For the execution of the measures foreseen in the previous section, the Government may give instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities.

[Pasong Tirad]

The people of catalonia we're recovering our own historical sovereignity lost in 1714 to do right laws.

Which they lost because they allied themself with the loosing side of the Spanish War of Sucession (House Habsburg) their rights were stripped by House Bourbon. So if thats the source of the grief, what if the current spanish government (respectively its Monarch who is actually a descendant and member of said House Bourbon) would restore the ancient rights of Catalonia that have been stripped in 1714, and if so what if those rights were to be restored?

Or would the newly independent Catalonia "import" a Habsburg on the to be established Throne?

The Catalans want out of Spain. No way would they want to retain the Spanish monarch.

[Empire of Narnia]

I support chaos and disorder in Europe, so yes.

[Catlander]

/skip

[Catlander]

@durham

1) Most spaniard (from the king to his people) deeply hate the Catalans because we're capable of being more rich than they -in spite of all the damage they have done to us- and also they need our money. They have a mixed feeling of hatred and envy. Ask any of them and you'll see.

2) Catalans do not want more kings, we want only a republic.

[Risottia]

1) Most spaniard (from the king to his people) deeply hate the Catalans

Proof?
Or just claiming your superior knowledge about what other people think? Because in this thread you already claimed you knew what every Catalan voter meant when they voted for the current Constitution?

[Catlander]

@Risottia


"Catalonia was occupied by Felipe IV, was occupied by Felipe V, who defeated it, was bombarded by General Espartero, who was a revolutionary general, and occupied it in 1939 and we are ready to take the rifle again. Therefore, you know how to stick, and here I have the gun to use it again "

Manuel Fraga Iribarne (founder of Partido Popular) in 1968

Notice: Partido Popular in 2011 gained 8.5 milion of votes (34%, but more than 60% in Castille, Madrid, Galicia and other regions)

"Terrorism in the Basque Country is a matter of public order, but the real danger is the Catalan differential fact".

Felipe Gonzalez (General Secretary of PSOE) in 1984.

Notice: PSOE of Gonzalez governed 1982 - 1996 without break with more than 10 milion of votes

(In the terrorism in Basque Country had 860 victims. In Catalan process of referendum 0)

Adding all votes of PP +PSOE together are more than 20 milion of anti-catalan votes. Spanish quorum is 33 milion, so +65% hates Catalonia. This is the evidence.

[Catlander]

Yesterday rendez-vous in La Diada. 1 milion of catalans taking the streets of Barcelona (in Catalonia are living currently 7.5 milion of catalans)

Le Monde (fr)
http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/video/2017 ... _3214.html

Another video (youtube)
https://https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=37bMGogBQ5k

It was spectacular !

[Socialist Czechia]

Wasn't really entire Franco era just delaying the inevitable, with democratic leniency just again slowing it?

[Risottia]

@Risottia


"Catalonia was occupied by Felipe IV, was occupied by Felipe V, who defeated it, was bombarded by General Espartero, who was a revolutionary general, and occupied it in 1939 and we are ready to take the rifle again. Therefore, you know how to stick, and here I have the gun to use it again "

Manuel Fraga Iribarne (founder of Partido Popular) in 1968

Notice: Partido Popular in 2011 gained 8.5 milion of votes (34%, but more than 60% in Castille, Madrid, Galicia and other regions)

"Terrorism in the Basque Country is a matter of public order, but the real danger is the Catalan differential fact".

Felipe Gonzalez (General Secretary of PSOE) in 1984.

Notice: PSOE of Gonzalez governed 1982 - 1996 without break with more than 10 milion of votes

(In the terrorism in Basque Country had 860 victims. In Catalan process of referendum 0)

Adding all votes of PP +PSOE together are more than 20 milion of anti-catalan votes. Spanish quorum is 33 milion, so +65% hates Catalonia. This is the evidence.

This isn't evidence of hate. This is just evidence of you taking quotes from the past (even from the Francoist era) out of context and then making up the electoral support for a major national party (supported by sizeable amounts of Catalans too) as "hate for Catalonia" in the present. Seriously, claiming that 2011 PP (as much as I despise Aznar and Rajoy) is exactly the same as 1968 PP? Or deliberately turning a 1984 quote from Gonzalez (which was comparing the risks for the unity of Spain, and admitting that there was a sharp need to address the Catalan issue, thus leading to the expanded autonomy Catalonia currently enjoys) into a "PSOE hates Catalonia".

The same tactics employed by "independentists" like, dunno, Italy's Lega Nord (vote for anything else than Lega Nord = "exploiting the North"). Meaning nothing but "we are richer so screw everyone else we wanna keep our money for ourselves". Tiresome, old, trite, and nearsighted just like any localisms in a globalised world.

[Catlander]

Wasn't really entire Franco era just delaying the inevitable, with democratic leniency just again slowing it?

Looks f.i.: Endesa is an electric lobby. A bill of Endesa light cost 100 euros/month. The 50% of an Endesa bill are taxes approved by PP.

So, The first president of Endesa, his founder, was Rodolfo Martín Villa: ex-Minister of Governance resposive of the murder of Vitoria (Basque Country) in 1977



Video of the murderer
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg24ce3yLg8

Martin Villa with Felipe Gonzalez (PSOE)



Martin Villa President of Grupo Endesa

All Spanish State is built with people like him CURRENTLY in PP or PSOE... all IBEX35 (spanish stock index) is full of ex-politicians of Franco).

What can do you do? (we chosen the referendum).

[Socialist Czechia]

Well, good luck in your special october day. As a country with Independence Day 28th October (the day we finally left 300 year old oppression of inbred Habsburgs), we have more things in common I suppose.

[Catlander]

Well, good luck in your special october day. As a country with Independence Day 28th October (the day we finally left 300 year old oppression of inbred Habsburgs), we have more things in common I suppose.

Thank you very much

Tell me one thing: Was it worth being independent?

[Farnhamia]

Well, good luck in your special october day. As a country with Independence Day 28th October (the day we finally left 300 year old oppression of inbred Habsburgs), we have more things in common I suppose.

Thank you very much

Tell me one thing: Was it worth being independent?

For the Czechs? Until about 1938, sure.

[Neanderthaland]

Thank you very much

Tell me one thing: Was it worth being independent?

For the Czechs? Until about 1938, sure.

They seem to have a chronic problem with being ruled by deranged Austrians.

[Socialist Czechia]

Yes, it was totally worth it, despite some idealists, who still sees end of Austria-Hungary as tragedy, although it was actually crumbling pile of corruption and injustice, with debts in like every European bank and unable to make any major imperial reform.

...and we were just so, so much tired from all the attempts to prove that we are equal people, with same rich history and culture, with our language same important in Vienna as German one.
Although without all these 7.5 Million ethnic Czech workers and farmers in 1918, Austrian realm would end long time ago.
The inbred Emperor in Vienna didn't even bother to crown himself Bohemian king.

For the Czechs? Until about 1938, sure.

Sorry for making mistake, that France and UK cares about democracy, Versailles and, like, five other international treaties.

Although, personally, I still feel shame we didn't fought alone. Abyssinians fought with sticks and bows sometimes, we had modern tanks, guns and fortresses.

[Neanderthaland]

Yes, it was totally worth it, despite some idealists, who still sees end of Austria-Hungary as tragedy, although it was actually crumbling pile of corruption and injustice, with debts in like every European bank and unable to make any major imperial reform.

...and we were just so, so much tired from all the attempts to prove that we are equal people, with same rich history and culture, with our language same important in Vienna as German one.
Although without all these 7.5 Million ethnic Czech workers and farmers in 1918, Austrian realm would end long time ago.
The inbred Emperor in Vienna didn't even bother to crown himself Bohemian king.

I couldn't begin to tell you how much I dislike Austria-Hungary, but I do have a sort of nostalgia for the idea that it could have become something better than it was.

Ideally with the removal of a few oversized chins.

[Socialist Czechia]

Well, last Emperor Charles could try to save something from the Empire, but he lacked the support and balls to do it.

Imagine if today in Spain, King Felipe unilaterally, against the PM, said that Referendum in Catalonia is a good idea to show strength and unity of Spanish democracy, although it must be properly approved, just like the one in UK about Scotland.
Did he tried anything like that?

[Dushan]

I loath both sides equally, as for I do not see two Nations there, but merely two sides both filled with the same breed of loathsome corrupt politicians formed out from the same swamp of the disgusting caste which holds the iberian pre-insula in it's chokehold, with it's Monarch sittiling idle by.

Now they're feeding of sentimental and delusional feelings and sentiments, unaware and ignorant of the consequences that may follow. So far not a single drop of blood has been spilled but this Day might not be far, and from there is no return. This is not a question of legality or nationhood, but one created by a handful of ruthless politicans recklessy jeopardizing the fate of thousends if not millions in order to improve their own pathetic standing.

Independence is a delusion when the same masters are going to rule at the end of the Day.

Consider this well before support either side.

You must be fun at conspiracy parties.

There is no conspiracy.

I stand by my words;

It's inept and corrupt politicians like Rajoy and Mas who started this to improve their own pathetic standing. Its them who repeatedly failed to be any constructive in this matters. Do not get me wrong however, I have nothing but disdain for the current "Regime" in Madrid, but I have my doubts about the catalan politicians as well though I feel Carles Puigdemont is of a different kind than Mas.

The Catalans want out of Spain. No way would they want to retain the Spanish monarch.

@durham

1) Most spaniard (from the king to his people) deeply hate the Catalans because we're capable of being more rich than they -in spite of all the damage they have done to us- and also they need our money. They have a mixed feeling of hatred and envy. Ask any of them and you'll see.

2) Catalans do not want more kings, we want only a republic.

I was not aware that both the spaniard and catalan people had elected representatives to NSG who speak in their names. /s

[Pasong Tirad]

You must be fun at conspiracy parties.

There is no conspiracy.

I stand by my words;

It's inept and corrupt politicians like Rajoy and Mas who started this to improve their own pathetic standing. Its them who repeatedly failed to be any constructive in this matters. Do not get me wrong however, I have nothing but disdain for the current "Regime" in Madrid, but I have my doubts about the catalan politicians as well though I feel Carles Puigdemont is of a different kind than Mas.

something something there's no good politician in Spain or Catalonia something something independence or not Iberians are fucked.

The Catalans want out of Spain. No way would they want to retain the Spanish monarch.

@durham

1) Most spaniard (from the king to his people) deeply hate the Catalans because we're capable of being more rich than they -in spite of all the damage they have done to us- and also they need our money. They have a mixed feeling of hatred and envy. Ask any of them and you'll see.

2) Catalans do not want more kings, we want only a republic.

I was not aware that both the spaniard and catalan people had elected representatives to NSG who speak in their names. /s

> not Catalan
> apparently can't speculate about Catalonia
Fucking logic right there.

[Catlander]

Gabriel Rufian (ERC) shows a printer to Soraya Saez De Santamaria (Goverment Vice-president of PP) to print ballot papers and claims don't be arrested by the goverment of Rajoy because he has a ballot.



Info:
http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/ ... um-6282534

[Socialist Czechia]

But seriously, isn't balkanization of Europe (and the rest of the world) actual cultural/historical trend? I've seen some works about it.

To 1800, old empires and kingdoms were consolidating into centralized realms, creating multi-ethnic creations spanning a globe, with creation of whole concept of the national state, but roughly since 1900, we see the opposite: we see only more states, carved from wars, revolutions and uprisings.
Who says Spain will be there still in 2100? Or Germany? Or Italy? Or rest of the world, India or China?

Perhaps entire Europe will return into crazy tiny-state times, looking like ol' 'good' HRE or Italian pile of city-states in Rennassaince.


In any case, Spain, just like Russia, Germany or China, is NOT 'indivisible': when another King with name Felipe battled British, I am sure he thought Spanish Empire in America will last for millenias.

Isn't that actually the other flag what Madrid really fears?