Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Tarragona]

According to the information, it seems the mayority of people in Barcelona and Tarragona region prefer staying in Spain.

Support for independence is mostly from the rural hinterlands; but in the more densely populated areas of Catalonia, support for independence is weaker.

[Catlander]

July 3, 2017 El Confidencial (Madrid)

Of the 70.1% of those who declare that they have decided to vote, 65.4% would support the independence of Catalonia, by 28.4% who would oppose and 6.2% who do not know or do not answer

Source:
https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2 ... m_1408498/

[Nova Catalunya]

Spain should follow the UK's model in allowing Catalonia to have an independence referendum. Most polls show people will vote against it, anyway. The argument that it's illegal under the constitution is a bit redundant because that can be changed and all the regions will agree to it. The fear of Spain (or rather, Madrid) is that it will lose it's biggest wealth generator.

Catalonia is its own country with its own history and language and culture. We were annexed by Spain to begin with so it is only right we be allowed to at least have the vote.

[Thermodolia]

* puts on CSA hat *

THE HAVE A RIGHT TO SECEDE, YA'LL

Seriously, though, they do. Everyone should if they so wish: South Ossetia, California, Donetesk, Novoroyssia, Kurdistan, that Puntland (?) guy in Somalia...

Nope there is no right to secede

[Kennlind]

In the 1980 elections, over 55% of people voted for nationalist parties. Why do you hate the Catalan voters?

Are you even aware of the difference between voting in a Constitutional referendum and voting in a local election called according to that Constitution to elect representatives who are supposed to exert their prerogatives within the limits set by that Constitution while administrating a local autonomy created by that Constitution? Why do you think you're allowed to misrepresent the results of Catalan elections?

Or for short, rule according to higher law. Learn about it.

Why do you think you're allowed to misrepresent the results of Catalan elections? The people who voted the constitution in did it in compromise, would they rather keep rules from the Franco era? No, they wouldn't. Stop acting so high and fucking mighty, okay?

[Kennlind]

Are you even aware of the difference between voting in a Constitutional referendum and voting in a local election called according to that Constitution to elect representatives who are supposed to exert their prerogatives within the limits set by that Constitution while administrating a local autonomy created by that Constitution? Why do you think you're allowed to misrepresent the results of Catalan elections?

Or for short, rule according to higher law. Learn about it.

You are talking to someone who wants Scotland to be free from the British right?

Eh. I'd prefer an independent highlands/western isles as my family are Gaelic and thats where they hail from, but Scotland would do :p

[Old Tyrannia]

You are talking to someone who wants Scotland to be free from the British right?

Eh. I'd prefer an independent highlands/western isles as my family are Gaelic and thats where they hail from, but Scotland would do

Obviously the only way to truly achieve freedom from the evil English is to chop Scotland up into ever smaller arbitrarily defined states of questionable economic self-sufficiency.

[Kennlind]

Eh. I'd prefer an independent highlands/western isles as my family are Gaelic and thats where they hail from, but Scotland would do

Obviously the only way to truly achieve freedom from the evil English is to chop Scotland up into ever smaller arbitrarily defined states of questionable economic self-sufficiency.

I dont hate the English I just think it's better for both of us to be independent from each other and work together as sovereign nations friendly to each other.
Besides, we dont need an economy.

[Nexus of All Realities]

* puts on CSA hat *

THE HAVE A RIGHT TO SECEDE, YA'LL

Seriously, though, they do. Everyone should if they so wish: South Ossetia, California, Donetesk, Novoroyssia, Kurdistan, that Puntland (?) guy in Somalia...

If the U.S. dissolved completely it would finally solve a lot of problems. I have no idea why anyone would really object to being separated from other peoples when most of us can't stand one another any longer. If anyone tells you that the U.S. in the 21st century has a chance to be a strongly unified nation under one American culture, they're lying.

[Old Tyrannia]

Besides, we dont need an economy.

[The Archregimancy]

@The Archregimancy

[es] el artículo 2º de la Constitución -el que articula la cuestión nacional en el Estado español- tiene una génesis antidemocrática. Fue concebido por poderes fácticos extraparlamentarios -nadie pone en duda de que eran militares- e impuesto a los representantes legítimos de la voluntad popular, vaya usted a saber bajo que tipo de amenazas.

[en]Article 2 of the Constitution - which articulates the national question in the Spanish State - has an antidemocratic genesis. It was conceived by extra-parliamentary factual powers - no doubt that they were military - and imposed on the legitimate representatives of the popular will, who knows under what kind of threats.

The related article 2 tells

Section 2. The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.

The word 'nationalities' is a joke from francoists. They thus reduce with a new word a nonexistent reality, and what is worse: there is no legal jurisprudence that allows it to exist if it is not under the Spanish Nation.

Source (spanish)
https://josuerkoreka.com/2009/12/04/jor ... -impuesta/

I invite you to translate it all.

Very little there addresses my last post. Y si, entiendo espanol.

You have a single link from a Basque nationalist that states that Jordi Sole Tura argued in a 1985 book that the language in Article 2 was partly drawn up under external pressure; the Basque nationalist stresses a single sentence that hints this pressure was Francoist ('Evidentemente, no se especificó cuáles eran estos sectores, pero no es difícil adivinarlo'). However, as Sole Tura notes himself in one of the quoted sections, 'Era, de hecho, una refundición de conceptos que reflejaba muchos de los puntos de la discusión final entre UCD, los comunistas y los nacionalistas, pero también los resultados de la presión exterior' ('It was, in fact, a reworking of concepts that reflected many of the points of the final discussion between the UCD, the communists and the nationalists, but also the results of external pressure'). In other words, it was a compromise reflecting a range of opinions - including those of the left wing and nationalist representatives. There's a fair amount of ambiguity there overall, so it's not particularly successful selective quoting on the part of the author.

Given that we all already know that the 1978 constitution was the result of significant compromise on the part of different representatives of the badly fractured late 1970s Spanish body politic, this hardly supports your apparent argument that both the '78 constitution and the modern Spanish government are functionally Francoist institutions, and that their Francoist nature inherently justifies Catalan independence.

Note that I'm not arguing against either a referendum or independence; only noting that your own ideological justification for both seems to rest on shaky foundations.

[The Archregimancy]

July 3, 2017 El Confidencial (Madrid)

Of the 70.1% of those who declare that they have decided to vote, 65.4% would support the independence of Catalonia, by 28.4% who would oppose and 6.2% who do not know or do not answer

Source:
https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2 ... m_1408498/

This is hardly a surprise.

They key element is 'decided to vote'; anti-independence voters are less likely to turn out in an election that the Spanish government argues is illegitimate - as we saw with the previous attempt at a referendum.

The answer you get very much depends on the nature of the question asked, as per the collated poll figures here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_i ... ndum,_2017

Both sides in the independence debate can find polls that give them reason for hope, depending on how the question is framed.

[Risottia]

July 3, 2017 El Confidencial (Madrid)

Of the 70.1% of those who declare that they have decided to vote, 65.4% would support the independence of Catalonia, by 28.4% who would oppose and 6.2% who do not know or do not answer

Source:
https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2 ... m_1408498/

65.4% of the 70.1% means the 45.8%

Which isn't the majority of Catalans.

Case closed.

[Risottia]

Are you even aware of the difference between voting in a Constitutional referendum and voting in a local election called according to that Constitution to elect representatives who are supposed to exert their prerogatives within the limits set by that Constitution while administrating a local autonomy created by that Constitution? Why do you think you're allowed to misrepresent the results of Catalan elections?

Or for short, rule according to higher law. Learn about it.

Why do you think you're allowed to misrepresent the results of Catalan elections?

The problem here is that I ain't misrepresenting results, you are. The results where overwhelmingly in favour of the text of the Constitution stating "indissoluble unity".

The people who voted the constitution in did it in compromise,

1.Explain how you manage to know exactly what was in the mind of every Catalan elector back then.
2.Explain how the alleged intent of the electors supersedes the will of the electors that has been clearly expressed through ballot papers.

would they rather keep rules from the Franco era? No, they wouldn't.

And among those new rules they chose to accept was "indissoluble unity".

So far your argument is "95% of Catalan electors didn't actually vote for that, I know it because, uhm, reasons, so the Constitution is worth shit and the results of administrative elections are more cogent than a Constitution anyway". Compelling, if only I failed to know anything about the constitutional principles of rule-of-law democracies.

Stop acting so high and fucking mighty, okay?

Or else? Trying to order someone to shut up to avoid being reminded that laws and votes matter. Uhm. Totally different from what the falangists used to do.
Also, no, I like fucking mighty. So I won't stop. If you dislike fucking, to whatever extent, that's your problem, not mine.

[Catlander]

@The Archregimancy

Como al revés contemplamos
yo y él las obras de Dios,
Diógenes o yo engañamos.
¿Cuál mentirá de los dos?
¿Quién es en pintar más fiel
las obras que Dios creó?
El cinismo dirá que él;
la virtud dirá que yo.

Y es que en el mundo traidor
nada hay verdad ni mentira;
todo es según el color
del cristal con que se mira.

(As in reverse we contemplate
Me and he the works of God,
Diogenes or me deceives.
Which of both will lie?
Who will paint more faithfully
the works that God created?
Cynicism will say that he;
virtue will say that me.

And it is that in the traitorous world
nothing is true or false;
everything is according to the color
of the glass with which it looks).

Ramón de Campoamor (spanish poet)

http://www.poemasyrelatos.com/poemas/L/ ... poamor.php

Yes. I agree you said. Everyone sees the things according to own criteria, and finally an election will made. Nobody knows what will happen really at 1 October.

[Rio Cana]

Spain should follow the UK's model in allowing Catalonia to have an independence referendum. Most polls show people will vote against it, anyway. The argument that it's illegal under the constitution is a bit redundant because that can be changed and all the regions will agree to it. The fear of Spain (or rather, Madrid) is that it will lose it's biggest wealth generator.

Catalonia is its own country with its own history and language and culture. We were annexed by Spain to begin with so it is only right we be allowed to at least have the vote.

It seems more a union then an outright annexation.
Spain did not exist until Queen Isabela and King Ferdinand decided to join there Kingdoms. Both Kingdoms were ruled separately even though in that relationship Castile had a little more say. It seems this union did favor the Crown of Aragon which Catalonia was part of since it seems economically they were not doing too good. It was not until Charles I was on the throne that in 1516 he decided that both Kingdoms were to be ruled has one. No longer were Catalonia and the other crown of Aragon kingdoms to be ruled by there own laws since standardized laws for all were introduced. Remember, both Isabela and Ferdinand were from Iberian royal families. Charles I was part of the Hapsburg royal family,

Read - https://www.saylor.org/site/wp-content/ ... FINAL1.pdf

[Catlander]

@Rio Cana you needs to read this episode

NOTING1: all candidates from Casa de Barcelona (catalan) just were dead in "rare circumstances"
NOTING 2: Ferdinand of Castille is the grandfather of Fernando de Aragon. F.Castile was loyal with catalan institutions, but not F.Aragon. Since then we've problems with Spain (1491).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_Caspe

[USS Monitor]

I think they should have the referendum and Catalonia should do what it wants. If the referendum happens and the secessionists get voted down, it should stay Spanish. If they vote to secede, it should be independent. I think it might struggle economically and politically if it secedes, but if the Catalans want to give it a go anyway, I'm OK with that.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

What does people giving their money to the Franco Foundation have to do with a Catalan independence referendum?

Proves that PP is evil and that Spain is a malevolent fascist dictatorship, hence independence for Catalonia.

I guess. Some logical gap here and there.

Weeeeeellllll, yes, PP is scum. Rajoy is a viper and wants to take the autonomy granted during Zapatero's incumbency away from the communities of Galicia and Catalunya.

[The Conez Imperium]

I think the question is can Catalonia become a state. It's evident that a lot of Catalonians want independence but simply holding a referendum (which Spain considers illegal) magically doesn't make Catalonia independence. Unless the catalonians want to use the last resort and descend into violence the only realistic way is to be recognised by Spain (which is never going to happen).

Perhaps the Catalonians should learn from the Kurds.

[Greater Sahul]

Spain would be better with them, but it is up to them to decide.

[Guelder]

No, Catalonia is part of Spain, like California is a part of the United States

[Greater Sahul]

No, Catalonia is part of Spain, like California is a part of the United States

Now, but it was not in the past and it needn't be in the future.

[Catlander]

No, Catalonia is part of Spain, like California is a part of the United States

A gift for you: a pin from Fundación Francisco Franco celebrating the visit of President Eisenhower (1959).





You gave breather 26 years more to dictator. Fantastic!

[Zottistan]

At the very least an increase in autonomy would be in order, although I'm not familiar enough with Spanish and Catalan history to judge whether or not full independence is a justified demand. As far as I know Catalonia hasn't been independent for a long time, and was since Spain's inception a core part of the country, not some imperial colony. I'm hoping it doesn't get voted through just because I could see that spiraling into armed conflict very quickly.