Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[Thermodolia]

@Nakena would you like that a murderer could access to the democracy without an international comdemn for his murders?

Do you have any idea that this it suppose in Germany, France or another democratic country?

Quit screaming fascist. Nobody gives a flying fuck anymore. All you are doing is driving people to support the far right with your continued cries of fascist.

[Nakena]

@Nakena would you like that a murderer could access to the democracy without an international comdemn for his murders?

I am not sure if understand your question. But many former people who spilled blood did rise to positions of power and office in western democracy.

Do you have any idea that this it suppose in Germany, France or another democratic country?

Germany had until the 90s former members of the NSDAP sitting in it's Parliament. French collaborateurs and former members of the Waffen-SS fought in Indochina.

I do get your point that the PP stands in the tradition of Francoism(sic!), but again I am rather interested in your personal experiences in Catalonia than some memes.

Quit screaming fascist. Nobody gives a flying fuck anymore. All you are doing is driving people to support the far right with your continued cries of fascist.

"muh based Rajoy, Hitler approved NatSoc" /s

[Old Tyrannia]

In my opinion the Spanish Government's response to the "referendum" was poorly thought out, unnecessarily brutal and probably counter-productive. It has certainly turned many people outside of Spain against the Spanish position. Despite this I still believe the Catalonian Government to be in the wrong. The referendum was illegal and conducted with no regard at all for due process. What's more, since Rajoy's party has actually been enjoying a surge in the Spanish polls following his response to the crisis, he's not likely to back off anytime soon no matter how loudly the international community holler.

Following King Felipe's speech this week, it seems like both the king and the broader Spanish public are growing increasingly frustrated with the Catalan separatists, which seems quite understandable given their increasingly juvenile antics and constant victimisation complex in spite of the high level of autonomy and respect for their regional culture that they have already garnered. I'm not exactly a huge fan of Spain for historical reasons and because of their continued hypocrisy over Gibraltar, although I do have a particular liking for the present Royal Family; but I am resolute in my support for the continued unity of the Spanish kingdom- not just because of the precedent it would set for other secessionist movements or because I don't want to see any if Europe's remaining monarchies weakened or a new republic established, though those are of course concerns for me- but principally because Catalonia is legally a part of Spain, has been for centuries, and has not followed a legal path to separation, besides which it has no solid rationale for doing so insofar as I can see. Just a bunch of radical leftists who want to be free of the rest of Spain so they can be free to pursue their left-wing utopia without interference.

I heard it's because Franco oppressed them, partially, by trying to enforced the one language and one culture policies.

Yeah, except Franco and his regime have been dead for decades and the current constitution of Spain- the one restricting regions of Spain from secession- was approved by voters across Spain, including Catalans, after Franco's regime collapsed. Now is an odd time to suddenly demand independence because of Franco's repression. Particularly given the generous treatment Catalonia has enjoyed under democratic governments in Spain since the end of the dictatorship.

[Trumptonium]

Santiago Abascal has officially sued the Spanish Executive for dereliction of duties, failure to uphold the constitution and failure to pursue, or the assistance of, criminal activities.

Unless the Spanish Supreme Court takes on a political stance over the next few hours or prioritises stability over law it seems Rajoy is gone .. or arrested.

[Robosia]

I heard it's because Franco oppressed them, partially, by trying to enforced the one language and one culture policies.

Yeah, except Franco and his regime have been dead for decades and the current constitution of Spain- the one restricting regions of Spain from secession- was approved by voters across Spain, including Catalans, after Franco's regime collapsed. Now is an odd time to suddenly demand independence because of Franco's repression. Particularly given the generous treatment Catalonia has enjoyed under democratic governments in Spain since the end of the dictatorship.

Actually, before Franco, Catalonia was an autonomous region. Then when Franco came along, he ended that even though the Catalan people still wanted it. After Franco died and his regime fell, Catalonia wanted autonomy, not independence. After a while, and by a while I mean 31 years, they were going to have autonomy, but the central Spanish government said no. After many protests, they tried for independence in 2014, but the government blocked them again and banned independence referendums.

[Trumptonium]

@Nakena would you like that a murderer could access to the democracy without an international comdemn for his murders?

Do you have any idea that this it suppose in Germany, France or another democratic country?

Do you have any idea how damaging to your cause and to anti-fascism you are when you call Rajoy a murderer and everyone you don't like Hitler?

I'm straddling the middle of the right-wing and I've been called a Hitler / fascist / Nazi / racist so many times I've become desensitised and the words 'sexism' and 'racism' mean absolutely nothing to me and I don't even respond to it when it's a genuine case of something in the news.

You can't call half of the mainstream 'far right' or 'fascist' or 'racist' w/e then except them to take these words seriously when the time comes. And, to be brutally honest, it's probably what pushes people towards the real far-right more than anything.

[Tananat]

Yeah, except Franco and his regime have been dead for decades and the current constitution of Spain- the one restricting regions of Spain from secession- was approved by voters across Spain, including Catalans, after Franco's regime collapsed. Now is an odd time to suddenly demand independence because of Franco's repression. Particularly given the generous treatment Catalonia has enjoyed under democratic governments in Spain since the end of the dictatorship.

Actually, before Franco, Catalonia was an autonomous region. Then when Franco came along, he ended that even though the Catalan people still wanted it. After Franco died and his regime fell, Catalonia wanted autonomy, not independence. After a while, and by a while I mean 31 years, they were going to have autonomy, but the central Spanish government said no. After many protests, they tried for independence in 2014, but the government blocked them again and banned independence referendums.

That's not entirely the full story, however. The Constitution that 95% of Catalan voters backed in 1978 contained the line about the "indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards", so its not like they didn't know they've been acting illegally for 3 years or more.

[Purpelia]

You can't call half of the mainstream 'far right' or 'fascist' or 'racist' w/e then except them to take these words seriously when the time comes. And, to be brutally honest, it's probably what pushes people towards the real far-right more than anything.

Indeed. For quite a lot of people these days the word Hitler simply means "what ever is opposite to those idiots." So it has to be a good thing.

[Trumptonium]

Yeah, except Franco and his regime have been dead for decades and the current constitution of Spain- the one restricting regions of Spain from secession- was approved by voters across Spain, including Catalans, after Franco's regime collapsed. Now is an odd time to suddenly demand independence because of Franco's repression. Particularly given the generous treatment Catalonia has enjoyed under democratic governments in Spain since the end of the dictatorship.

Actually, before Franco, Catalonia was an autonomous region.

For a grand total of 6 years.

they were going to have autonomy, but the central Spanish government said no.

They said yes. That's why Catalonia is .. uh .. an autonomous community.

After many protests, they tried for independence in 2014, but the government blocked them again and banned independence referendums.

The Catalonians voted in favour of the Spanish constitution which explicitly banned seccessionism decades ago. They banned themselves from referendums.

[Australian rePublic]

If the peolle desire indipendance, grant it to them. What bood does it do to Spain to hold onto land who wamts no part of them?

>European union
>Canada

So what? Cyprus is a member and it is geographically Asia. Greenland was in the EEC and it is geographically America.

Shh, only Americans don't know geography./s

Nope, I would guess there are Americans who also fail at history.

Cyprus, Greenland and Catalonia are close enough to Europe. Canada isn't

[Astaliah]

When people say, "catalonia leaving Spain is unconstitutional and illegal therefore wrong", there are a number of problems:

1. Catalonia aren't leaving Spain - they can't. That's just like france leaving Portugal - France isn't in Portugal, so it cant leave
2. The constituion of Spain states that the Spanish nation is 'indivisible'. It says nothing about Catalonia or the Basque Country, just Spain. When Catalans wrre votingbfor that consitituion, they were voting for Spain, not Catalonia.
3. Do Spain have the right to impose their laws on a country that (possibly) doesn't want to be in it? The only way to find out is to let the vote...
4. "Don't forget everything Hitler did was legal" ~ Martin Luther King Jr.
The EU are saying that they support Spain in this because the Catalans are breaking the law. Thats like Churchill saying he won't declare war on Germany because what they are doing is perfectly legal.

Whether you're for or against Independence, we should all agree that Catalonia should be allowed vote for their own future

[The Empire of Pretantia]

When people say, "catalonia leaving Spain is unconstitutional and illegal therefore wrong", there are a number of problems:

1. Catalonia aren't leaving Spain - they can't. That's just like france leaving Portugal - France isn't in Portugal, so it cant leave
2. The constituion of Spain states that the Spanish nation is 'indivisible'. It says nothing about Catalonia or the Basque Country, just Spain. When Catalans wrre votingbfor that consitituion, they were voting for Spain, not Catalonia.
3. Do Spain have the right to impose their laws on a country that (possibly) doesn't want to be in it? The only way to find out is to let the vote...
4. "Don't forget everything Hitler did was legal" ~ Martin Luther King Jr.
The EU are saying that they support Spain in this because the Catalans are breaking the law. Thats like Churchill saying he won't declare war on Germany because what they are doing is perfectly legal.

Whether you're for or against Independence, we should all agree that Catalonia should be allowed vote for their own future

No.

[Larin]

When people say, "catalonia leaving Spain is unconstitutional and illegal therefore wrong", there are a number of problems:

1. Catalonia aren't leaving Spain - they can't. That's just like france leaving Portugal - France isn't in Portugal, so it cant leave
2. The constituion of Spain states that the Spanish nation is 'indivisible'. It says nothing about Catalonia or the Basque Country, just Spain. When Catalans wrre votingbfor that consitituion, they were voting for Spain, not Catalonia.
3. Do Spain have the right to impose their laws on a country that (possibly) doesn't want to be in it? The only way to find out is to let the vote...
4. "Don't forget everything Hitler did was legal" ~ Martin Luther King Jr.
The EU are saying that they support Spain in this because the Catalans are breaking the law. Thats like Churchill saying he won't declare war on Germany because what they are doing is perfectly legal.

Whether you're for or against Independence, we should all agree that Catalonia should be allowed vote for their own future

No, Catalonia will remain a part of Spain, and if a war breaks out, i will be on the side of Spain

[Thermodolia]

When people say, "catalonia leaving Spain is unconstitutional and illegal therefore wrong", there are a number of problems:

1. Catalonia aren't leaving Spain - they can't. That's just like france leaving Portugal - France isn't in Portugal, so it cant leave
2. The constituion of Spain states that the Spanish nation is 'indivisible'. It says nothing about Catalonia or the Basque Country, just Spain. When Catalans wrre votingbfor that consitituion, they were voting for Spain, not Catalonia.
3. Do Spain have the right to impose their laws on a country that (possibly) doesn't want to be in it? The only way to find out is to let the vote...
4. "Don't forget everything Hitler did was legal" ~ Martin Luther King Jr.
The EU are saying that they support Spain in this because the Catalans are breaking the law. Thats like Churchill saying he won't declare war on Germany because what they are doing is perfectly legal.

Whether you're for or against Independence, we should all agree that Catalonia should be allowed vote for their own future

1. Yes they are leaving Spain. Catalonia is apart of Spain and Spanish laws apply there.
2. Again Catalonia is subordinate to Spain. Therefore they can't leave Spain
3. Yes. The Spanish constitution says that Spanish laws apply in Catalonia
4. The Catalonians are breaking the law. It's illegal to hold a referendum or to leave Spain of which Catalonia is apart of.

You can't just decide what laws apply and what don't on a whim.

[Tananat]

1. Catalonia aren't leaving Spain - they can't. That's just like france leaving Portugal - France isn't in Portugal, so it cant leave
2. The constituion of Spain states that the Spanish nation is 'indivisible'. It says nothing about Catalonia or the Basque Country, just Spain. When Catalans wrre votingbfor that consitituion, they were voting for Spain, not Catalonia.

No, you're wrong. The full article in question states: "The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all."

Which clearly refers to all Spaniards, including the Catalans.

Also, no, everything Hitler did was not legal.

[Old Tyrannia]

Yeah, except Franco and his regime have been dead for decades and the current constitution of Spain- the one restricting regions of Spain from secession- was approved by voters across Spain, including Catalans, after Franco's regime collapsed. Now is an odd time to suddenly demand independence because of Franco's repression. Particularly given the generous treatment Catalonia has enjoyed under democratic governments in Spain since the end of the dictatorship.

Actually, before Franco, Catalonia was an autonomous region.

Yes, I know.

Then when Franco came along, he ended that even though the Catalan people still wanted it.

Show me where I denied this.

After Franco died and his regime fell, Catalonia wanted autonomy, not independence. After a while, and by a while I mean 31 years, they were going to have autonomy, but the central Spanish government said no. After many protests, they tried for independence in 2014, but the government blocked them again and banned independence referendums.

The pre-Franco autonomous government of Catalonia was restored in 1977, following the democratisation of Spain. What the Catalans demand is greater autonomy, to the point that they'd be independent in all but name. Independence referendums weren't banned in 2014, they're disallowed under the Spanish Constitution implemented in 1978 with the approval of 95% of the Catalonian electorate.

[Trumptonium]

When Catalans wrre votingbfor that consitituion, they were voting for Spain, not Catalonia.

by this line of logic, the rest of Spain should vote whether Catalonia can leave, since Catalonia unfairly decided / voted on something they wouldn't be affected by, bit like Scotland voting on issues that only affect England

so let Madrid vote whether Barcelona can go.

[Trumptonium]

Also, no, everything Hitler did was not legal.

theoretically yes it was

[Parti Ouvrier]

When people say, "catalonia leaving Spain is unconstitutional and illegal therefore wrong", there are a number of problems:

1. Catalonia aren't leaving Spain - they can't. That's just like france leaving Portugal - France isn't in Portugal, so it cant leave
2. The constituion of Spain states that the Spanish nation is 'indivisible'. It says nothing about Catalonia or the Basque Country, just Spain. When Catalans wrre votingbfor that consitituion, they were voting for Spain, not Catalonia.
3. Do Spain have the right to impose their laws on a country that (possibly) doesn't want to be in it? The only way to find out is to let the vote...
4. "Don't forget everything Hitler did was legal" ~ Martin Luther King Jr.
The EU are saying that they support Spain in this because the Catalans are breaking the law. Thats like Churchill saying he won't declare war on Germany because what they are doing is perfectly legal.

Whether you're for or against Independence, we should all agree that Catalonia should be allowed vote for their own future

1. Yes they are leaving Spain. Catalonia is apart of Spain and Spanish laws apply there.
2. Again Catalonia is subordinate to Spain. Therefore they can't leave Spain
3. Yes. The Spanish constitution says that Spanish laws apply in Catalonia
4. The Catalonians are breaking the law. It's illegal to hold a referendum or to leave Spain of which Catalonia is apart of.

You can't just decide what laws apply and what don't on a whim.

1 & 2 - contradictory.
And 4, I don't think it's illegal to hold a referendum, say, for example, for a more federal system like Germany.

[Neanderthaland]

Also, no, everything Hitler did was not legal.

theoretically yes it was

If you're going to go off-topic, this is an odd thing to go off-topic about.

"Sure it doesn't have much to do with Catalonia, but I can't let someone get away with delegitimizing the Fuhrer!"

[Parti Ouvrier]

When people say, "catalonia leaving Spain is unconstitutional and illegal therefore wrong", there are a number of problems:

1. Catalonia aren't leaving Spain - they can't. That's just like france leaving Portugal - France isn't in Portugal, so it cant leave
2. The constituion of Spain states that the Spanish nation is 'indivisible'. It says nothing about Catalonia or the Basque Country, just Spain. When Catalans wrre votingbfor that consitituion, they were voting for Spain, not Catalonia.
3. Do Spain have the right to impose their laws on a country that (possibly) doesn't want to be in it? The only way to find out is to let the vote...
4. "Don't forget everything Hitler did was legal" ~ Martin Luther King Jr.
The EU are saying that they support Spain in this because the Catalans are breaking the law. Thats like Churchill saying he won't declare war on Germany because what they are doing is perfectly legal.

Whether you're for or against Independence, we should all agree that Catalonia should be allowed vote for their own future

No, Catalonia will remain a part of Spain, and if a war breaks out, i will be on the side of Spain

Which means you'll side with Catalonia (which is still a part of Spain), and Spain being at war with itself?

[Tananat]

Also, no, everything Hitler did was not legal.

theoretically yes it was

Totes forgot that burning down the Reichstag was legal.

[Trumptonium]

theoretically yes it was

Totes forgot that burning down the Reichstag was legal.

I'm 100% sure MLK was thinking about a poor old building in the middle of Berlin when he made that comment.

[The Widening Gyre]

but principally because Catalonia is legally a part of Spain, has been for centuries, and has not followed a legal path to separation,

Well that's part of the problem, isn't it? The Spanish constitution has no legal path for separation for the Catalonians to follow.

besides which it has no solid rationale for doing so insofar as I can see. Just a bunch of radical leftists who want to be free of the rest of Spain so they can be free to pursue their left-wing utopia without interference.

They're not particularly leftist though. The two largest parties in the sovereigntist coalition are centre-right and centre-leftists, with very minor support from smaller leftist parties. Which is one of the interesting things about the Catalonian independence movement, IMO - I can't really think of another separatist movement that is this broadly intersectional.

[Catlander]

@Old Tyrannia

Didn't you knew that at 1977 (1 year before of Spanish Constitution) all the spanish people were traumatized for a franqoist massacre in Madrid (meanwhile the politicians were writing the Constitution)?

The Audiencia Nacional, a Spanish high court, condemned the convicted to a total of 464 years of prison. José Fernández Cerdá and Carlos García Juliá each received sentences of 196 years, while Albadalejo Corredera received 63 years for orchestrating the attack (he died in prison in 1985). However, the escape of Lerdo de Tejada, while freed on bail in 1979, reinforced the victims' lawyers' convictions that the attackers had received aid from well-connected sources. Lerdo de Tejada escaped to France, then Chile and Brazil — the period of prescription for his crime expired in 1997.[4] Jaime Sartorius, lawyer for the plaintiffs, believes the people behind the attack have never been brought to justice: "...They did not let us investigate. For us, the investigations were pointing towards the secret services, but only pointing towards them. By this I do not want to imply anything"

Source: Massacre of Atocha, 1977 (Madrid)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Massacre_of_Atocha

Video
La matanza de Atocha

So, if you had needed to vote "pro" to change the francoist regime (with the new Constitution) or "cons" for continue with the killers regime. What would you voted?

Believe me... the catalans we could'nt voted anything more then!