Catalonia Megathread: Should Catalonia Separate From Spain?

[The Widening Gyre]

Spain's current debt? If Catalonia doesn't take on its share of the debt it's not going to get into the EU. While Spain now without its cash cow and saddled with massive amounts of debt will default sending a financial shock wave across the EU. It won't be pretty and could possibly spell doom for the EU and I hope to God that a collapsing EU doesn't trigger a world wide economic crisis.

Which really just proves that the Spanish debt, like the rest of the 'PIIG' group, needs a more permanent solution than implementing harsh austerity and kicking the can down the road like the EU has done so far. That's one of the things that needs to be talked about between the EU, its member states, the Catalonians and the Spanish. The fact that we're here talking about quashing a benign democratic independence movement because it needs to get chained to the yoke so Spain can remain solvent is proof of that.

"Spain and the EU should disregard all their own interests, the precedent it would set, and the fact that this isn't even legal, because muh d1rect democracy"

Sitting down and talking is not against Spain and the EU's interests. Costs nothing and could literally prevent civil war.

[Senkaku]

"Spain and the EU should disregard all their own interests, the precedent it would set, and the fact that this isn't even legal, because muh d1rect democracy"

Sitting down and talking is not against Spain and the EU's interests. Costs nothing and could literally prevent civil war.

At the end of the day, Madrid isn't going to tolerate independence, and Catalan leadership is hellbent on just that. The EU doesn't have the stomach for war but it also doesn't want independence.

The solution here is for the Catalans to back the fuck down, frankly.

The EU has said it considers the referendum illegal. There's a zero percent chance of that happening.

And the EU has never acted rashly or with bad faith before

The EU: "hey, the splintering of a member state against its constitution wouldn't be good, and it'd be against our interests on every level to endorse this illegal referendum, so let's not"
Merizoc: "oh my god you unbelievable fucking fascists"

[Thermodolia]

Spain's current debt? If Catalonia doesn't take on its share of the debt it's not going to get into the EU. While Spain now without its cash cow and saddled with massive amounts of debt will default sending a financial shock wave across the EU. It won't be pretty and could possibly spell doom for the EU and I hope to God that a collapsing EU doesn't trigger a world wide economic crisis.

Which really just proves that the Spanish debt, like the rest of the 'PIIG' group, needs a more permanent solution than implementing harsh austerity and kicking the can down the road like the EU has done so far. That's one of the things that needs to be talked about between the EU, its member states, the Catalonians and the Spanish. The fact that we're here talking about quashing a benign democratic independence movement because it needs to get chained to the yoke so Spain can remain solvent is proof of that.

I don't call something that could cause harm benign.

[MERIZoC]

Sitting down and talking is not against Spain and the EU's interests. Costs nothing and could literally prevent civil war.

At the end of the day, Madrid isn't going to tolerate independence, and Catalan leadership is hellbent on just that. The EU doesn't have the stomach for war but it also doesn't want independence.

The solution here is for the Catalans to back the fuck down, frankly.

And the EU has never acted rashly or with bad faith before

The EU: "hey, the splintering of a member state against its constitution wouldn't be good, and it'd be against our interests on every level to endorse this illegal referendum, so let's not"
Merizoc: "oh my god you unbelievable fucking fascists"

If Catalonians pushing for independence will cause severe economic problems for Europe then it is in fact in their interests to ensure a smooth process, whatever that may be.

[Senkaku]

At the end of the day, Madrid isn't going to tolerate independence, and Catalan leadership is hellbent on just that. The EU doesn't have the stomach for war but it also doesn't want independence.

The solution here is for the Catalans to back the fuck down, frankly.


The EU: "hey, the splintering of a member state against its constitution wouldn't be good, and it'd be against our interests on every level to endorse this illegal referendum, so let's not"
Merizoc: "oh my god you unbelievable fucking fascists"

If Catalonians pushing for independence will cause severe economic problems for Europe then it is in fact in their interests to ensure a smooth process, whatever that may be.

But if a "smooth process" involved, say, arresting people or not giving them independence, you'll be back to squealing about fascism.

[Albrenia]

For people that had a pretty good point of the vote being illegal, the Spanish certainly did a good job looking like jackboots with how they handled it. Next time they might want to show more control.

[MERIZoC]

If Catalonians pushing for independence will cause severe economic problems for Europe then it is in fact in their interests to ensure a smooth process, whatever that may be.

But if a "smooth process" involved, say, arresting people or not giving them independence, you'll be back to squealing about fascism.

This is self evidently not a smooth process

[Oil exporting People]

If Catalonians pushing for independence will cause severe economic problems for Europe then it is in fact in their interests to ensure a smooth process, whatever that may be.

More an argument to utterly crush them.

[Senkaku]

But if a "smooth process" involved, say, arresting people or not giving them independence, you'll be back to squealing about fascism.

This is self evidently not a smooth process

"Only a process that results in everything I want in exactly the way I want it to is a smooth process"
Nothing will be good enough for you, so I don't know why you're even participating lmao. If you hadn't noticed, Catalonia wants to become a *~s t a t e~*

For people that had a pretty good point of the vote being illegal, the Spanish certainly did a good job looking like jackboots with how they handled it. Next time they might want to show more control.

Yeah, they certainly shot themselves in the foot PR wise. No denying that. However, the cries of fascism from some Catalans and their supporters are totally ridiculous- Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still quite dead.

[MERIZoC]

This is self evidently not a smooth process

"Only a process that results in everything I want in exactly the way I want it to is a smooth process"
Nothing will be good enough for you, so I don't know why you're even participating lmao. If you hadn't noticed, Catalonia wants to become a *~s t a t e~*

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. You're smart

[Pasong Tirad]

This is self evidently not a smooth process

"Only a process that results in everything I want in exactly the way I want it to is a smooth process"
Nothing will be good enough for you, so I don't know why you're even participating lmao. If you hadn't noticed, Catalonia wants to become a *~s t a t e~*

America will never accept a country that can't speak English into the union. Haven't you learned from Puerto RIco?

For people that had a pretty good point of the vote being illegal, the Spanish certainly did a good job looking like jackboots with how they handled it. Next time they might want to show more control.

Yeah, they certainly shot themselves in the foot PR wise. No denying that. However, the cries of fascism from some Catalans and their supporters are totally ridiculous- Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still quite dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A92B6ps-Vk
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 76791.html

[The Widening Gyre]

Sitting down and talking is not against Spain and the EU's interests. Costs nothing and could literally prevent civil war.

At the end of the day, Madrid isn't going to tolerate independence, and Catalan leadership is hellbent on just that. The EU doesn't have the stomach for war but it also doesn't want independence.

The solution here is for the Catalans to back the fuck down, frankly.

And the only way to give the Catalonian government room to do that is to open talks with the EU mediating. Puigdemonts been asking for that ever since the referendum but neither Spain or the EU are interested.

Which really just proves that the Spanish debt, like the rest of the 'PIIG' group, needs a more permanent solution than implementing harsh austerity and kicking the can down the road like the EU has done so far. That's one of the things that needs to be talked about between the EU, its member states, the Catalonians and the Spanish. The fact that we're here talking about quashing a benign democratic independence movement because it needs to get chained to the yoke so Spain can remain solvent is proof of that.

I don't call something that could cause harm benign.

In the sense that they're peaceful and actively interested in talking out their issues with Spain rather than detonating truck bombs in Madrid.

[Lady Scylla]

At the end of the day, Madrid isn't going to tolerate independence, and Catalan leadership is hellbent on just that. The EU doesn't have the stomach for war but it also doesn't want independence.

The solution here is for the Catalans to back the fuck down, frankly.

And the only way to give the Catalonian government room to do that is to open talks with the EU mediating. Puigdemonts been asking for that ever since the referendum but neither Spain or the EU are interested.

I don't call something that could cause harm benign.

In the sense that they're peaceful and actively interested in talking out their issues with Spain rather than detonating truck bombs in Madrid.

^Yep. They're willing to talk, if Spain wishes to keep being heavy handed, then that may eventually change. If Rajoy has any brains he'll do the talks with the Catalan government.

[Corrian]

In the sense that they're peaceful and actively interested in talking out their issues with Spain rather than detonating truck bombs in Madrid.

Until you give them more of a reason to feel like doing such a thing, anyway...

Though I noticed that people in Catalonia seemed very good at not fighting the police back, at least from the videos I have seen, so hopefully it wouldn't lead to that. But it wouldn't be shocking, either.

[Polvatsiya]

Now that i have thought about it more, the Cat's are right. Rajoy is a criminal sponsored by the European Union.

[Trumptonium]

And the only way to give the Catalonian government room to do that is to open talks with the EU mediating. Puigdemonts been asking for that ever since the referendum but neither Spain or the EU are interested.



In the sense that they're peaceful and actively interested in talking out their issues with Spain rather than detonating truck bombs in Madrid.

^Yep. They're willing to talk, if Spain wishes to keep being heavy handed, then that may eventually change. If Rajoy has any brains he'll do the talks with the Catalan government.

And then be thrown in jail or deposed.

[Benuty]

"Only a process that results in everything I want in exactly the way I want it to is a smooth process"
Nothing will be good enough for you, so I don't know why you're even participating lmao. If you hadn't noticed, Catalonia wants to become a *~s t a t e~*

America will never accept a country that can't speak English into the union. Haven't you learned from Puerto RIco?

Yeah, they certainly shot themselves in the foot PR wise. No denying that. However, the cries of fascism from some Catalans and their supporters are totally ridiculous- Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still quite dead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A92B6ps-Vk
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 76791.html

The issue is actually pretty complicated since SCOTUS had to set a precedent in regards to the new territories as they were home to "alien races," who had no concept of American values. Mind you that was their premise for dealing with these territories not mine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_Cases

[Old Tyrannia]

In my opinion the Spanish Government's response to the "referendum" was poorly thought out, unnecessarily brutal and probably counter-productive. It has certainly turned many people outside of Spain against the Spanish position. Despite this I still believe the Catalonian Government to be in the wrong. The referendum was illegal and conducted with no regard at all for due process. What's more, since Rajoy's party has actually been enjoying a surge in the Spanish polls following his response to the crisis, he's not likely to back off anytime soon no matter how loudly the international community holler.

Following King Felipe's speech this week, it seems like both the king and the broader Spanish public are growing increasingly frustrated with the Catalan separatists, which seems quite understandable given their increasingly juvenile antics and constant victimisation complex in spite of the high level of autonomy and respect for their regional culture that they have already garnered. I'm not exactly a huge fan of Spain for historical reasons and because of their continued hypocrisy over Gibraltar, although I do have a particular liking for the present Royal Family; but I am resolute in my support for the continued unity of the Spanish kingdom- not just because of the precedent it would set for other secessionist movements or because I don't want to see any if Europe's remaining monarchies weakened or a new republic established, though those are of course concerns for me- but principally because Catalonia is legally a part of Spain, has been for centuries, and has not followed a legal path to separation, besides which it has no solid rationale for doing so insofar as I can see. Just a bunch of radical leftists who want to be free of the rest of Spain so they can be free to pursue their left-wing utopia without interference.

[Costa Fierro]

At the end of the day, Madrid isn't going to tolerate independence, and Catalan leadership is hellbent on just that. The EU doesn't have the stomach for war but it also doesn't want independence.

The solution here is for the Catalans to back the fuck down, frankly.


The EU: "hey, the splintering of a member state against its constitution wouldn't be good, and it'd be against our interests on every level to endorse this illegal referendum, so let's not"
Merizoc: "oh my god you unbelievable fucking fascists"

If Catalonians pushing for independence will cause severe economic problems for Europe then it is in fact in their interests to ensure a smooth process, whatever that may be.

It's in Europe's interests to keep Spain intact. If Catalonia goes, so does 20% of Spain's GDP and a shitload of public debt that Madrid will now have to pay for by itself. And boy if you think Greek austerity is going to be bad, wait until you see what happens when Madrid has to pay for Catalonia's share of the national debt.

By the way, Catalonian independence won't solve Catalonia's debt problems, because no self respecting international institution is going to touch it with a 50 foot barge pole tipped with dogshit. So now we have Spain tanked beyond anything it has experienced before, an independent Catalonia with no way of securing loans, and the rest of Europe going back into recession. That brings a wave of new social unrest and gives fuel for the European far right.

[The Knockout Gun Gals]

In my opinion the Spanish Government's response to the "referendum" was poorly thought out, unnecessarily brutal and probably counter-productive. It has certainly turned many people outside of Spain against the Spanish position. Despite this I still believe the Catalonian Government to be in the wrong. The referendum was illegal and conducted with no regard at all for due process. What's more, since Rajoy's party has actually been enjoying a surge in the Spanish polls following his response to the crisis, he's not likely to back off anytime soon no matter how loudly the international community holler.

Following King Felipe's speech this week, it seems like both the king and the broader Spanish public are growing increasingly frustrated with the Catalan separatists, which seems quite understandable given their increasingly juvenile antics and constant victimisation complex in spite of the high level of autonomy and respect for their regional culture that they have already garnered. I'm not exactly a huge fan of Spain for historical reasons and because of their continued hypocrisy over Gibraltar, although I do have a particular liking for the present Royal Family; but I am resolute in my support for the continued unity of the Spanish kingdom- not just because of the precedent it would set for other secessionist movements or because I don't want to see any if Europe's remaining monarchies weakened or a new republic established, though those are of course concerns for me- but principally because Catalonia is legally a part of Spain, has been for centuries, and has not followed a legal path to separation, besides which it has no solid rationale for doing so insofar as I can see. Just a bunch of radical leftists who want to be free of the rest of Spain so they can be free to pursue their left-wing utopia without interference.

I heard it's because Franco oppressed them, partially, by trying to enforced the one language and one culture policies.

[Farnhamia]

TIP What's PP?

The UE supports this.

[Nakena]

TIP What's PP?

(Image)

The UE supports this.

Hitler stopped being the boogyman and doesnt scares anymore. He has been so often used as a meme of the ultimative evil that it became inflationary.

Tell us rather how things down there, I would be actually interested in that rather than some meme.

[Thermodolia]

"Only a process that results in everything I want in exactly the way I want it to is a smooth process"
Nothing will be good enough for you, so I don't know why you're even participating lmao. If you hadn't noticed, Catalonia wants to become a *~s t a t e~*

America will never accept a country that can't speak English into the union. Haven't you learned from Puerto RIco?

Actually Puerto Ricans have always voted for keeping the status quo.

[Catlander]

@Nakena would you like that a murderer could access to the democracy without an international comdemn for his murders?

Do you have any idea that this it suppose in Germany, France or another democratic country?

[Thermodolia]

TIP What's PP?

(Image)

The UE supports this.

Hitler stopped being the boogyman and doesnt scares anymore. He has been so often used as a meme of the ultimative evil that it became inflationary.

Tell us rather how things down there, I would be actually interested in that rather than some meme.

They think that continued cries of fascism and calling those opposed fascists will help them. Instead it's done the exact opposite. Instead of people not wanting to be fascist a bunch of people have decided what the hell we are already called Nazis and fascists on the daily, even though we aren't either of them, so why not just join the far right.

It's amazing when the far left destroys their own goals by insulting the moderates