Duelling: A practice that would prevent more deaths

[Jefferson-Madison]

So I'm quite new here, but not new to this type of discussions.
Let's discuss something that I was fascinated in ever since listening to Hamilton: The Musical
Duelling: A practice that would prevent more deaths than it causes.
--
So here's a definition of a duel

According to Wikipedia:
A duel is an arranged engagement in combat between two individuals, with matched weapons, in accordance with agreed-upon rules. Duels in this form were chiefly practiced in early modern Europe with precedents in the medieval code of chivalry, and continued into the modern period (19th to early 20th centuries) especially among military officers.

During the 17th and 18th centuries (and earlier), duels were mostly fought with swords (the rapier, and later the smallsword), but beginning in the late 18th century in England, duels were more commonly fought using pistols. Fencing and pistol duels continued to co-exist throughout the 19th century.

The duel was based on a code of honor. Duels were fought not so much to kill the opponent as to gain "satisfaction", that is, to restore one's honor by demonstrating a willingness to risk one's life for it, and as such the tradition of dueling was originally reserved for the male members of nobility; however, in the modern era it extended to those of the upper classes generally. On rare occasions, duels with pistols or swords were fought between women; these were sometimes known as petticoat duels.

--
I believe that the outlawing of duels caused a spike in cold-booded murder in the last centuries. To have a decline in cold-blooded murder, we will need to legalize duelling, as it's less brutal and killing is not even really the whole point of it.

Imagine if duelling was outlawed when Burr was mad at Hamilton. Cold-blooded murder could mean not only killing Alexander, but also potentially hurting/killing Eliza, Philip(he'd be alive but jailed for murdering Eacker), Angelica(their second born), and so on.

SO imagine that, and that is why duelling is certainly a better practice than cold-blooded killing, at at least it is based on a code of honor which is stated in the song "Ten Duel Commandments" included in Hamilton: The Musical (The album is on Spotify, history nerd or not, check it out!)

[MEN]
One, two, three, four

[FULL COMPANY]
Five, six, seven, eight, nine…

[BURR/HAMILTON/LAURENS/LEE]
It’s the Ten Duel Commandments

[FULL COMPANY]
It’s the Ten Duel Commandments
Number one!

[LAURENS]
The challenge: demand satisfaction
If they apologize, no need for further action

[COMPANY]
Number two!

[LAURENS]
If they don’t, grab a friend, that’s your second

[HAMILTON]
Your lieutenant when there’s reckoning to be reckoned

[COMPANY]
Number three!

[LEE]
Have your seconds meet face to face

[BURR]
Negotiate a peace…

[HAMILTON]
Or negotiate a time and place

[BURR]
This is commonplace, ‘specially ‘tween recruits

[COMPANY]
Most disputes die, and no one shoots
Number four!

[LAURENS]
If they don’t reach a peace, that’s alright
Time to get some pistols and a doctor on site

[HAMILTON]
You pay him in advance, you treat him with civility

[BURR]
You have him turn around so he can have deniability

[COMPANY]
Five!

[LEE]
Duel before the sun is in the sky

[COMPANY]
Pick a place to die where it’s high and dry
Number six!

[HAMILTON]
Leave a note for your next of kin
Tell ‘em where you been. Pray that hell or heaven lets you in

[COMPANY]
Seven!

[LEE]
Confess your sins. Ready for the moment
Of adrenaline when you finally face your opponent

[COMPANY]
Number eight!

[LAURENS/LEE/HAMILTON/BURR]
Your last chance to negotiate
Send in your seconds, see if they can set the record straight…

[some hamburr chat about maybe it's a bad idea?(well it's true since many people misunderstand the point of duelling)]

[COMPANY]
Number nine!

[HAMILTON]
Look ‘em in the eye, aim no higher
Summon all the courage you require
Then count

[MEN]
One two three four

[FULL COMPANY]
Five six seven eight nine

[HAMILTON/BURR]
Number

[COMPANY]
Ten paces!

[HAMILTON/BURR]
Fire!

credits: Genius lyrics

What's your opinion, NSG?

[Mike the Progressive]

Usually when I do a hit of acid or coke, I avoid NS. But you didn't. Shows a lot of balls. I like that.

Balls, I mean. Especially my own.

As for dueling, let's legalize, recreationalize, and spirtualize

[Bombadil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDsn-RRmDXU

[Jefferson-Madison]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDsn-RRmDXU

What's the vid about? I'm wary of opening random youtube links, quite frankly.

[Bombadil]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDsn-RRmDXU

What's the vid about? I'm wary of opening random youtube links, quite frankly.

You besmirch my good honour sir, a duel at dawn it shall be.. what is your weapon of choice?

[Infected Mushroom]

Yes. It should be legal.

There are so many people I would like to duel.

Make it so that its a HUGE public dishonour if they refuse so that they more likely will accept...

I would like to use a Jaime Lannister Valyrian steel blade to fight for real.

[Jefferson-Madison]

What's the vid about? I'm wary of opening random youtube links, quite frankly.

You besmirch my good honour sir, a duel at dawn it shall be.. what is your weapon of choice?

AHahaha fine I opened it

[AiliailiA]

I believe that the outlawing of duels caused a spike in cold-booded murder in the last centuries.

Why do you believe that?

Also, what's your definition of "cold-blooded murder", if that's not just "murder"?

[Bombadil]

I would like to use a Jaime Lannister Valyrian steel blade to fight for real.

A fine choice sir, I'll be using an MP7A1 myself, see you at dawn.

[Jefferson-Madison]

I believe that the outlawing of duels caused a spike in cold-booded murder in the last centuries.

Why do you believe that?

Also, what's your definition of "cold-blooded murder", if that's not just "murder"?

There's no more formal way to settle disagreements for people who have a rather physical instinct, whom cannot easily be swayed by dialogue.

CBMs are just the regular random murders/massacres that happen every day.

[Infected Mushroom]

I would like to use a Jaime Lannister Valyrian steel blade to fight for real.

A fine choice sir, I'll be using an MP7A1 myself, see you at dawn.

I have no quarrel with you so I wouldn't want to duel you. I only duel people who have insulted my honour (aka were total ***** to me).

Also, I would assume that the legislation enabling the duels would say something about using fair weapon match ups.

[Jefferson-Madison]

A fine choice sir, I'll be using an MP7A1 myself, see you at dawn.

I have no quarrel with you so I wouldn't want to duel you. I only duel people who have insulted my honour (aka were total ***** to me).

Also, I would assume that the legislation enabling the duels would say something about using fair weapon match ups.

That should definitely be included, so there will be a fair fight.

[Bakery Hill]

It's a practice that should be left in the time of slavery.

[Neanderthaland]

I believe that the outlawing of duels caused a spike in cold-booded murder in the last centuries. To have a decline in cold-blooded murder, we will need to legalize duelling, as it's less brutal and killing is not even really the whole point of it.

Do you have any evidence for that?

[Bakery Hill]

Duelling was a practice, in America at least, undertaken by aristocratic slaveholders and/or sellers like your good friend Alexander Hamilton. It was never common amongst the lower orders who, as a rule, are far more sensible.

[AiliailiA]

Why do you believe that?

Also, what's your definition of "cold-blooded murder", if that's not just "murder"?

There's no more formal way to settle disagreements for people who have a rather physical instinct, whom cannot easily be swayed by dialogue.

I was thinking more facts and figures, proof, evidence of some kind. The "spike in ... murder in the last centuries" if it exists, some numbers on that. The numbers of people killed in duels before, the number of non-lethal resolutions of duels. Perhaps some like-with-like comparisons from a time and place where duelling still took place, tracing the outcomes of similar disputes with and without a duel.

CBMs are just the regular random murders/massacres that happen every day.

Saying "cold-blooded" is just rhetorical flourish then. OK.

[Albrenia]

Also using modern day pistols to duel would be incredibly dangerous compared to the inaccurate ones they used to use.

[Bakery Hill]

There's no more formal way to settle disagreements for people who have a rather physical instinct, whom cannot easily be swayed by dialogue.

I was thinking more facts and figures, proof, evidence of some kind. The "spike in ... murder in the last centuries" if it exists, some numbers on that. The numbers of people killed in duels before, the number of non-lethal resolutions of duels. Perhaps some like-with-like comparisons from a time and place where duelling still took place, tracing the outcomes of similar disputes with and without a duel.

CBMs are just the regular random murders/massacres that happen every day.

Saying "cold-blooded" is just rhetorical flourish then. OK.

This could be a good start.

The homicide rate in the US has fallen dramatically over the past few centuries. The following graph shows the fall in the homicide rate in relation to various armed conflicts in New England. In the early colonial days in America, the homicide rate was incredibly high. But as the colonies became more established and orderly, the rate fell, except for the time during the American Revolution when the colonies were understandably amidst upheaval. It’s important to note that one cannot directly derive from this graph a causal relationship between these conflicts and the homicide rate.

https://ourworldindata.org/homicides/#usa

By the time of the Broderick-Terry duel of 1859, slavery had become the new reason for dueling. Dueling had lost favor in the early 1800s in the North, but still remained the dispute-solving method of choice in the South, where social standing was a touchier subject.

Although 18 states had outlawed dueling by 1859, it was still often practiced in the South and the West. Dueling became less common in the years following the Civil War, with the collective public opinion perhaps soured by the amount of bloodshed during the conflict.

By the start of the 20th century, dueling laws were enforced and it became a thing of the past

https://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectiv ... n-america/
And so we see no correlation between rising crime rates and duelling. In fact it seems the opposite is true.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Duelling was a practice, in America at least, undertaken by aristocratic slaveholders and/or sellers like your good friend Alexander Hamilton. It was never common amongst the lower orders who, as a rule, are far more sensible.

Fun fact: the last duel in the Western world took place in 1967 between two members of the French parliament. One of which was a member of the Socialist party.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e68nuAcSuWQ

[Infected Mushroom]

I have no quarrel with you so I wouldn't want to duel you. I only duel people who have insulted my honour (aka were total ***** to me).

Also, I would assume that the legislation enabling the duels would say something about using fair weapon match ups.

That should definitely be included, so there will be a fair fight.

I would also like duel by League of Legends to be an option under the legislation.

We can do it like those Red Mercy 100 Dollar Challenges. Best of 5 (ex Lee v Lee, Riven v Riven etc).

[Galloism]

Huh. This is a new one.

I believe that the outlawing of duels caused a spike in cold-booded murder in the last centuries. To have a decline in cold-blooded murder, we will need to legalize duelling, as it's less brutal and killing is not even really the whole point of it.

Do you have any evidence for that?

I would also like to know this.

[Jefferson-Madison]

I was thinking more facts and figures, proof, evidence of some kind. The "spike in ... murder in the last centuries" if it exists, some numbers on that. The numbers of people killed in duels before, the number of non-lethal resolutions of duels. Perhaps some like-with-like comparisons from a time and place where duelling still took place, tracing the outcomes of similar disputes with and without a duel.



Saying "cold-blooded" is just rhetorical flourish then. OK.

This could be a good start.

The homicide rate in the US has fallen dramatically over the past few centuries. The following graph shows the fall in the homicide rate in relation to various armed conflicts in New England. In the early colonial days in America, the homicide rate was incredibly high. But as the colonies became more established and orderly, the rate fell, except for the time during the American Revolution when the colonies were understandably amidst upheaval. It’s important to note that one cannot directly derive from this graph a causal relationship between these conflicts and the homicide rate.

https://ourworldindata.org/homicides/#usa

By the time of the Broderick-Terry duel of 1859, slavery had become the new reason for dueling. Dueling had lost favor in the early 1800s in the North, but still remained the dispute-solving method of choice in the South, where social standing was a touchier subject.

Although 18 states had outlawed dueling by 1859, it was still often practiced in the South and the West. Dueling became less common in the years following the Civil War, with the collective public opinion perhaps soured by the amount of bloodshed during the conflict.

By the start of the 20th century, dueling laws were enforced and it became a thing of the past

https://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectiv ... n-america/
And so we see no correlation between rising crime rates and duelling. In fact it seems the opposite is true.

But on that same link is a graph where once the Rev happened, homoicide rates are quite low compared to, say, today

[United Muscovite Nations]

In terms of the illegalization of dueling, I don't think it's so much the principle of the matter that gets it outlawed, so much as how it would be pretty difficult to prevent people from abusing it. For one, you'd have to like send out the sheriff to oversee the duel to make sure there's no underhanded tricks, which ties down law enforcement resources.

[Jefferson-Madison]

In terms of the illegalization of dueling, I don't think it's so much the principle of the matter that gets it outlawed, so much as how it would be pretty difficult to prevent people from abusing it. For one, you'd have to like send out the sheriff to oversee the duel to make sure there's no underhanded tricks, which ties down law enforcement resources.

That would be the job for the seconds, they are the ones who keep the whole thing systematic

[United Muscovite Nations]

In terms of the illegalization of dueling, I don't think it's so much the principle of the matter that gets it outlawed, so much as how it would be pretty difficult to prevent people from abusing it. For one, you'd have to like send out the sheriff to oversee the duel to make sure there's no underhanded tricks, which ties down law enforcement resources.

That would be the job for the seconds, they are the ones who keep the whole thing systematic

How would you prevent someone from paying off the second? Seconds can't be trusted legally speaking.