Unpopular Assertion: Men and women raped at comparable rates

[Galloism]

Ok, I know this is going to get a hell of a lot of feedback (at various gloating/loathing/fawning/random accusations of sexism levels, depending on the poster), but I've been putting this together for a while and I think I'm ready to have it critiqued.

Here's my assertion:

I think men and women are raped at approximately equal rates, give or take a few percentage points.

I can't quite prove it yet, but the data is suggestive. Let's go through it.

As you well know by now, the CDC reports that each year approximately as many men are raped as women if one uses a nonsexist definition of rape (unlike them) and include men forced to penetrate women.

Links here:

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/ ... 2010-a.pdf

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrht ... ss6308a1_e

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/ ... rtBook.pdf

We've been over these studies multiple times on NSG. If you need an explanation of the numbers, I can provide links to my old posts and threads.

As you also well know, the only reason that that is not included as rape in the statistical findings is due to the efforts of Mary Koss and her ilk, starting with her 1993 "detecting the scope of rape" study.

http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/wp ... agraph.pdf

Ok, why is this important? Because our memory sucks, and we tend to remember things in accordance with what society tells us to. Data telling us that men are never raped leads to the following:

http://eprints.lancs.ac.uk/84762/1/Revi ... s_rape.pdf

As such, in their experiences some of the men explicitly documented that they did not report their experience to the police or indeed to anyone else for fear of stigmatisation and disbelief:

...

It’s one thing to deal with the aftereffect of being raped, but it also was a secondary hit for me — oh, you’re a guy, how could you be raped by a woman, that makes no sense … I was afraid to talk to anybody about it because of the stigma I felt I would receive in talking about it (Anderson et al., N.D).

Men KNOW that no one will believe them if they've been raped. Some stay silent and just don't tell anyone for fear of being mocked, but others do this:

Finally, one compelled penetration victim noted how he did not truthfully disclose what had happened, instead framing his experience to others as one that involved consensual sex in order to maintain his masculinity:

At that point, I decided to own it. Because if I owned it, it wasn't embarrassing and it didn't strip me of my masculinity. I had never heard of this happening to anybody else, and researching it online made my problem seem more real to me, which was frightening. Panic flooded me and all I wanted to do was scrub my soul of everything that was demoralising and demasculinising about the experience. My interpretation became consensual sex, and I proclaimed that sex was awesome, even though I had no clue what it felt like at all. I bragged to my neighbors, who could hear her wailing through paper-thin walls. The more I bragged, the more the agony subsided

A re-framing of the event. Here's the thing: if you repeat a lie over and over again for a sufficient timeframe, it BECOMES the truth to you. Our memory is like a telephone game. Also despite being attributed to Joseph Goebbels, he probably never said it, except it's asserted often enough it might become true (which could be the joke).

https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2 ... phone-game

We can see this effect when it comes to analyzing adult recollections of childhood sexual abuse:

https://www.jimhopper.com/pdf/Widom1997.pdf

It is interesting that less than 1/5 (16%) of men with documented cases of sexual abuse considered their early experiences to be sexual abuse, compared with 64% of the sexually abused women.

So these were men and women with documented cases of sexual abuse. Documented. 36% of women and 84% of men had mentally erased that it was abuse. Both men and women do this, incidentally, but men do at 233% the rate of women. (Normal caveats about small sample size, more research, etc)

What's interesting about that is that a study by David Finkelhor shows 1 in 5 girls and 1 in 20 boys is a victim of childhood sexual abuse.

http://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporti ... statistics

However, if you paste the "forgetting" section into that, you get (20%/64)*100 = 31.25% of girls, and (5%/16)*100 = 31.25% of boys.

And yes, that implies about 1/3 of children, of both genders, suffer sexual abuse. Proof? Not quite. Suggestive, however.

Combine that with the year by year study of adults and you wind up that there's suggestive evidence that men and women suffer sexual abuse at roughly equal rates as children, and suffer rape at roughly equal rates as adults. It's just men erase theirs.

Thoughts, NSG?

[Vassenor]

So basically this is an incredibly loaded way of telling us something we already know. It's not an unpopular opinion if it's an accepted fact.

[Galloism]

So basically this is an incredibly loaded way of telling us something we already know. It's not an unpopular opinion if it's an accepted fact.

That men and women are raped at comparable rates?

It's a pretty unpopular opinion in most circles. It's viewed as misogynistic in many circles to even suggest it.

[Risottia]

That men and women are raped at comparable rates?
It's a pretty unpopular opinion in most circles. It's viewed as misogynistic in many circles to even suggest it.

Gotta love that slight understatement.

I foresee you'll be called a rapist-enabler before this thread reaches page three.

[Sanctissima]

What's being classified as rape though?

Researchers telling men they've been sexually assaulted despite men not believing they were sexually assaulted seems to be a recurring trend in a lot of these studies, so what exactly is being classified as rape?

[Galloism]

What's being classified as rape though?

Researchers telling men they've been sexually assaulted despite men not believing they were sexually assaulted seems to be a recurring trend in a lot of these studies, so what exactly is being classified as rape?

Someone having penetrative sex with them while they did not consent, were passed out, or were so drunk or high they were unable to consent.

[The East Marches II]

The mental erasure/shift you mentioned in the second half of your post is very interesting, good OP with information on the matter.

[Geilinor]

So basically this is an incredibly loaded way of telling us something we already know. It's not an unpopular opinion if it's an accepted fact.

It's highly unpopular. You would be laughed at in most circles if you tried to talk about male rape.

[Vassenor]

So basically this is an incredibly loaded way of telling us something we already know. It's not an unpopular opinion if it's an accepted fact.

It's highly unpopular. You would be laughed at in most circles if you tried to talk about male rape.

Not according to the openly feminist lecturer I had second year.

[Sanctissima]

What's being classified as rape though?

Researchers telling men they've been sexually assaulted despite men not believing they were sexually assaulted seems to be a recurring trend in a lot of these studies, so what exactly is being classified as rape?

Someone having penetrative sex with them while they did not consent, were passed out, or were so drunk or high they were unable to consent.

Fair enough.

I do however wonder whether it can really be considered rape if the supposed victim does not consider it as such. The entire point of classifying something as rape is that there's a victim involved by necessity. But if the supposed victim doesn't consider themself a victim, well, it's hard to argue otherwise.

[Galloism]

Someone having penetrative sex with them while they did not consent, were passed out, or were so drunk or high they were unable to consent.

Fair enough.

I do however wonder whether it can really be considered rape if the supposed victim does not consider it as such. The entire point of classifying something as rape is that there's a victim involved by necessity. But if the supposed victim doesn't consider themself a victim, well, it's hard to argue otherwise.

I don't see why. A crime is a crime regardless of how the victim feels about it. Now, the victim might decide not to press charges, but that doesn't change the nature of the crime.

I take $20 from your wallet without your permission. You discover it a few hours later and decide it's not a big deal.

What's that called?

[Luminesa]

Someone having penetrative sex with them while they did not consent, were passed out, or were so drunk or high they were unable to consent.

Fair enough.

I do however wonder whether it can really be considered rape if the supposed victim does not consider it as such. The entire point of classifying something as rape is that there's a victim involved by necessity. But if the supposed victim doesn't consider themself a victim, well, it's hard to argue otherwise.

If a person is drunk, and has no idea what's going on, they might not consider what's happening to be rape. It's still rape if they don't consent. A child might have no idea what's going on anyway, and might have no idea they're being raped (though they may sense something is inherently wrong with what is being done to them), but it's still rape. And we could go on for a while.

[Sanctissima]

Fair enough.

I do however wonder whether it can really be considered rape if the supposed victim does not consider it as such. The entire point of classifying something as rape is that there's a victim involved by necessity. But if the supposed victim doesn't consider themself a victim, well, it's hard to argue otherwise.

I don't see why. A crime is a crime regardless of how the victim feels about it. Now, the victim might decide not to press charges, but that doesn't change the nature of the crime.

I take $20 from your wallet without your permission. You discover it a few hours later and decide it's not a big deal.

What's that called?

Depends.

If it's something like child molestation or predatory behaviour, I can understand why it should be classified as rape regardless of the victim's opinion.

But if it's something like a married couple or long-time relationship, where a sober spouse has sex with their drunk partner, I wouldn't classify it as rape. The definition needs some kind of nuance, and although I'm by no means an expert on the subject nor have I thoroughly read studies done on the matter, I'm inclined to think that many of the researchers you cited made no such distinction so as to boost their numbers.

[Vassenor]

I do hope we're not about to leap head first down the "spousal rape isn't real" rabbit hole.

[Galloism]

I don't see why. A crime is a crime regardless of how the victim feels about it. Now, the victim might decide not to press charges, but that doesn't change the nature of the crime.

I take $20 from your wallet without your permission. You discover it a few hours later and decide it's not a big deal.

What's that called?

Depends.

It really doesn't.

If it's something like child molestation or predatory behaviour, I can understand why it should be classified as rape regardless of the victim's opinion.

But if it's something like a married couple or long-time relationship, where a sober spouse has sex with their drunk partner, I wouldn't classify it as rape. The definition needs some kind of nuance, and although I'm by no means an expert on the subject nor have I thoroughly read studies done on the matter, I'm inclined to think that many of the researchers you cited made no such distinction so as to boost their numbers.

The problem is you can't post-facto decide if something was a crime. It's either a crime when it occurs or it isn't.

You don't care. Is it a crime?

Yes.

Let's suppose it does bother you and you go to the police and report me. Is it a crime?

Has the act changed? No. The answer is therefore still yes.

Now imagine if you wouldn't have gotten mad over the $20, but you get hit by a bus before you find out about it.

Has the act changed? No. Is it still a crime? Yes.

[Galloism]

I do hope we're not about to leap head first down the "spousal rape isn't real" rabbit hole.

I hope not. The majority of men who are raped as adults are raped by their female spouses or partners.

[Sanctissima]

Depends.

It really doesn't.

If it's something like child molestation or predatory behaviour, I can understand why it should be classified as rape regardless of the victim's opinion.

But if it's something like a married couple or long-time relationship, where a sober spouse has sex with their drunk partner, I wouldn't classify it as rape. The definition needs some kind of nuance, and although I'm by no means an expert on the subject nor have I thoroughly read studies done on the matter, I'm inclined to think that many of the researchers you cited made no such distinction so as to boost their numbers.

The problem is you can't post-facto decide if something was a crime. It's either a crime when it occurs or it isn't.

You don't care. Is it a crime?

Yes.

Let's suppose it does bother you and you go to the police and report me. Is it a crime?

Has the act changed? No. The answer is therefore still yes.

Now imagine if you wouldn't have gotten mad over the $20, but you get hit by a bus before you find out about it.

Has the act changed? No. Is it still a crime? Yes.

That's a very Legalist view of the purpose of the judicial system.

You might as well arrest half the population of the world if that's the route you want to take.

[Sanctissima]

I do hope we're not about to leap head first down the "spousal rape isn't real" rabbit hole.

I hope not. The majority of men who are raped as adults are raped by their female spouses or partners.

And hence my problem with these supposed "studies".

The definition of rape is intentionally broadened so as to boost numbers for shock value.

[Vassenor]

I do hope we're not about to leap head first down the "spousal rape isn't real" rabbit hole.

I hope not. The majority of men who are raped as adults are raped by their female spouses or partners.

That tends to be true for the vast majority of rapes, full stop. The "stranger rape" depicted in the media is by far the rarest form of sexual assault going.

[Galloism]

That's a very Legalist view of the purpose of the judicial system.

You might as well arrest half the population of the world if that's the route you want to take.

Like I said, you may decide not to file a complaint or prosecute or whatever. That doesn't change the fact of being a crime. It just means you find not punishing it to be "better" than punishing it, as the victim.

[Galloism]

I hope not. The majority of men who are raped as adults are raped by their female spouses or partners.

And hence my problem with these supposed "studies".

The definition of rape is intentionally broadened so as to boost numbers for shock value.

Well, rape is a large part of domestic abuse, particularly for men, as it's an attempt to strip the abused partner of their manhood, and has the subsidiary effect of shielding the abuser from retribution, as by using rape as a tactic of domination and abuse, the man has almost zero chance of being believed.

[Sanctissima]

That's a very Legalist view of the purpose of the judicial system.

You might as well arrest half the population of the world if that's the route you want to take.

Like I said, you may decide not to file a complaint or prosecute or whatever. That doesn't change the fact of being a crime. It just means you find not punishing it to be "better" than punishing it, as the victim.

In which case you aren't a victim.

If you've been in a relationship with someone for years, and have made it at least reasonably clear that you don't mind this sort of thing, then you clearly aren't suddenly a "rape victim" just because your significant other had sex with you while you were drunk.

[Sanctissima]

And hence my problem with these supposed "studies".

The definition of rape is intentionally broadened so as to boost numbers for shock value.

Well, rape is a large part of domestic abuse, particularly for men, as it's an attempt to strip the abused partner of their manhood, and has the subsidiary effect of shielding the abuser from retribution, as by using rape as a tactic of domination and abuse, the man has almost zero chance of being believed.

Then perhaps men shouldn't willfully enter into what seems to be ersatz BDSM relationships.

[Thermodolia]

I do hope we're not about to leap head first down the "spousal rape isn't real" rabbit hole.

And how do you get that from "men and women are raped at comparable rates"?

[Thermodolia]

Like I said, you may decide not to file a complaint or prosecute or whatever. That doesn't change the fact of being a crime. It just means you find not punishing it to be "better" than punishing it, as the victim.

In which case you aren't a victim.

If you've been in a relationship with someone for years, and have made it at least reasonably clear that you don't mind this sort of thing, then you clearly aren't suddenly a "rape victim" just because your significant other had sex with you while you were drunk.

Just because you can't stand up for yourself doesn't mean that you are ok with it. Was I ok with it when my father hit me and cussed me out for forgetting a word or misspelling something? Hell the fuck no! But there was nothing I could do as my father had power and I didn't. I was told that nobody would believe a word I said.

In these cases it's probably the same. They are trapped with an abusive asshole as a spouse