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Why does everyone think democracy is so great?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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San Lumen
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Posts: 81235
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:43 pm

Herador wrote:
San Lumen wrote:I like the idea of FPTP. Your much more likely to have a majority government. The electoral college should absolutely be gotten rid of as should gerrymandering

FPTP is also restrictive and forces people, at least in the US, to choose the safe option rather than the option they want, leading to voter apathy.

You know what if enough people voted for the option they want that wouldn't be a argument. There is a thing called a primary and then another thing called a ballot paper.
Don't like the options run for office yourself. Or in the general do a write in or vote for the candidate your actually want.

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Herador
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Posts: 8038
Founded: Mar 08, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Herador » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:50 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Herador wrote:FPTP is also restrictive and forces people, at least in the US, to choose the safe option rather than the option they want, leading to voter apathy.

You know what if enough people voted for the option they want that wouldn't be a argument. There is a thing called a primary and then another thing called a ballot paper.
Don't like the options run for office yourself. Or in the general do a write in or vote for the candidate your actually want.

But it is an argument and it is a reason people aren't voting or interested in the political process in general which is the problem at hand here. Like it all you want and sing its praises, but it's part of the problem.
Last edited by Herador on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My politics are real simple: I just want to be able to afford to go to the doctor.

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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:06 pm

Herador wrote:
San Lumen wrote:You know what if enough people voted for the option they want that wouldn't be a argument. There is a thing called a primary and then another thing called a ballot paper.
Don't like the options run for office yourself. Or in the general do a write in or vote for the candidate your actually want.

But it is an argument and it is a reason people aren't voting or interested in the political process in general which is the problem at hand here. Like it all you want and sing its praises, but it's part of the problem.

I just gave you a solution. Not voting means you lose the right to complain. In many countries that have proportional representation and one party getting a majority is very hard. When was the last time a party in Germany got a majority on its own. Poland has only done it once since 1989.

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Herador
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Founded: Mar 08, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Herador » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:15 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Herador wrote:But it is an argument and it is a reason people aren't voting or interested in the political process in general which is the problem at hand here. Like it all you want and sing its praises, but it's part of the problem.

I just gave you a solution. Not voting means you lose the right to complain. In many countries that have proportional representation and one party getting a majority is very hard. When was the last time a party in Germany got a majority on its own. Poland has only done it once since 1989.

I get where you're coming from, but Germany and Poland are very different to the US, and I agree we can absolutely look at them as an example but it isn't 1-1. I think we're coming at this from opposite angles, you see that if people just voted the problem would be resolved but I think that there are social factors that discourage people from voting in the first place. All I think is that if we removed or changed those social factors people would be encouraged to vote.

The rub is I just can't see how you can turn around decades of apathy with "just vote". People have been told that over and over again and nothing seems to change for them so they give up again, seems to me like if a solid change was made people would get that faith back again.

E:holy shit I hate phone posting on NS
Last edited by Herador on Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My politics are real simple: I just want to be able to afford to go to the doctor.

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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:18 pm

Herador wrote:
San Lumen wrote:I just gave you a solution. Not voting means you lose the right to complain. In many countries that have proportional representation and one party getting a majority is very hard. When was the last time a party in Germany got a majority on its own. Poland has only done it once since 1989.

I get where you're coming from, but Germany and Poland are very different to the US, and I agree we can absolutely look at them as an example but it isn't 1-1. I think we're coming at this from opposite angles, you see that if people just voted the problem would be resolved but I think that there are social factors that discourage people from voting in the first place. All I think is that if we removed or changed those social factors people would be encouraged to vote.

The rub is I just can't see how you can turn around decades of apathy with "just vote". People have been told that over and over again and nothing seems to change for them so they give up again, seems to me like if a solid change was made people would get that faith back again.

E:holy shit I hate phone posting on NS


I think Canada's election law is the ideal. everyone gets a voter ID when they register to vote, there is no gerrymandering as all districts are drawn by a independent commission and any candidate regardless of weather or not your supporting them will give you a ride to the polls. In addition everyone should be registered to vote automatically when they turn 18 unless they opt out.

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Crylante
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Crylante » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:21 pm

People like democracy because democracy is a good idea for decision making. Because fundamentally, if a policy is going to affect a group of people, that group of people should have a say on that policy.

Now, I support the use of democracy a lot more widely, and more directly, but in a deliberative democratic form.
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Herador
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Posts: 8038
Founded: Mar 08, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Herador » Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:44 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Herador wrote:I get where you're coming from, but Germany and Poland are very different to the US, and I agree we can absolutely look at them as an example but it isn't 1-1. I think we're coming at this from opposite angles, you see that if people just voted the problem would be resolved but I think that there are social factors that discourage people from voting in the first place. All I think is that if we removed or changed those social factors people would be encouraged to vote.

The rub is I just can't see how you can turn around decades of apathy with "just vote". People have been told that over and over again and nothing seems to change for them so they give up again, seems to me like if a solid change was made people would get that faith back again.

E:holy shit I hate phone posting on NS


I think Canada's election law is the ideal. everyone gets a voter ID when they register to vote, there is no gerrymandering as all districts are drawn by a independent commission and any candidate regardless of weather or not your supporting them will give you a ride to the polls. In addition everyone should be registered to vote automatically when they turn 18 unless they opt out.

It would certainly be a good first step, I agree.
My politics are real simple: I just want to be able to afford to go to the doctor.

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Soyouso
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Founded: May 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Soyouso » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:55 am

I don't understand why people hold it to be so holy. Even if you're not like me and you actually enjoy it, you should at least admit it's not perfect and it certainly has good reasons for people to be turned off by it. They're not doing it because of not wanting justice or idiocy, they just have a different idea of political justice from you.

I'll give some of the thoughts I was having when I was losing faith in democracy, but way before my ideology changed to fascism, to give examples of why someone would turn away from democracy.

For one thing, I was stressed because while I was and still am too young to vote, it would be my vote against everyone else's. If my vote were unpopular, it wouldn't matter because the mainstream narrative, whether it was a good idea or a bad idea, would win. This is something the Democrats learned upon the victory of President Donald Trump, even more considering we almost ended up with another Clinton. I, for one, was happy about that, but can see even to this day a lot of Democrats are STILL questioning whether he legitimately won, blaming everything except Hillary Clinton's shitty campaign skills and trail of scandals that made people not trust her. It seems some people only like democracy when they get their way, an interesting observation I made. This mentality causes 'us vs them', which is very bad for our society. Why do you think America is so politically divided? Because that kind of divide is inevitable in a democratic nation. Altogether it holds back progress because everyone is too busy fucking with what ever the 'other side' is in their situation, that the way we handle common threats becomes weaker.

Just because the majority wants something doesn't make it good. I don't like the idea of the government being run like a high school prom queen election. Popularity does not mean you are worthy of the privilege of being the beacon of hope, protection, uniting force, and in a way a representative of your country. I cannot stand many politicians nowadays, a lot of them are a fucking joke to me. I don't trust some schmuck who knows how to throw sweet sounding lies and money at people to be involved in government. People generally don't pick someone because they want to give them what they need, but what they want even if it's bad for them. There is also the possibility of people only voting for someone because they're not the other guy. I admit this is one of the reasons I rooted for Donny. Clinton was a wreck. But it sure ain't the only reason.

Imagine you live in a direct democractic system, where any preexisting laws can be changed. A candidate comes along, and let's say she wants to abolish the mental health budget and shoot anyone with a mental illness to put them out of their misery. She also has a long history of hating one of the races living in the country, and would hold extreme bias against them if in office. Her opponent is a bumbling idiot who doesn't understand anything about her own country's people, and got into the final stages because she doesn't hate that minorty the first woman hates. Whether the general public likes the first candidate or the second, does that mean she should be allowed to be into power? Even in systems where there are limits for ethical and moral reasons so no one can vote for genocide or some other crazy shit, smaller things can happen that are like this situation. Just because they don't have absolute power doesn't mean oppression and suffering can't happen. For people who do not support either of the final United States candidates, this is exactly what happened.

I also don't like switching leaders so often. I understand this is done to try to more accurately represent the popular opinion of the people, but this can lead to unnecessary sudden policy changes, like when someone undoes things the previous candidate did just to spite them, like Donald Trump undoing certain things because Obama.

Even if you don't agree with me, it's not a flawless system just because you like it, and there are legitimate reasons people don't like it.
Last edited by Soyouso on Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:49 am

Soyouso wrote:I don't understand why people hold it to be so holy. Even if you're not like me and you actually enjoy it, you should at least admit it's not perfect and it certainly has good reasons for people to be turned off by it. They're not doing it because of not wanting justice or idiocy, they just have a different idea of political justice from you.

I'll give some of the thoughts I was having when I was losing faith in democracy, but way before my ideology changed to fascism, to give examples of why someone would turn away from democracy.

For one thing, I was stressed because while I was and still am too young to vote, it would be my vote against everyone else's. If my vote were unpopular, it wouldn't matter because the mainstream narrative, whether it was a good idea or a bad idea, would win. This is something the Democrats learned upon the victory of President Donald Trump, even more considering we almost ended up with another Clinton. I, for one, was happy about that, but can see even to this day a lot of Democrats are STILL questioning whether he legitimately won, blaming everything except Hillary Clinton's shitty campaign skills and trail of scandals that made people not trust her. It seems some people only like democracy when they get their way, an interesting observation I made. This mentality causes 'us vs them', which is very bad for our society. Why do you think America is so politically divided? Because that kind of divide is inevitable in a democratic nation. Altogether it holds back progress because everyone is too busy fucking with what ever the 'other side' is in their situation, that the way we handle common threats becomes weaker.

Just because the majority wants something doesn't make it good. I don't like the idea of the government being run like a high school prom queen election. Popularity does not mean you are worthy of the privilege of being the beacon of hope, protection, uniting force, and in a way a representative of your country. I cannot stand many politicians nowadays, a lot of them are a fucking joke to me. I don't trust some schmuck who knows how to throw sweet sounding lies and money at people to be involved in government. People generally don't pick someone because they want to give them what they need, but what they want even if it's bad for them. There is also the possibility of people only voting for someone because they're not the other guy. I admit this is one of the reasons I rooted for Donny. Clinton was a wreck. But it sure ain't the only reason.

Imagine you live in a direct democractic system, where any preexisting laws can be changed. A candidate comes along, and let's say she wants to abolish the mental health budget and shoot anyone with a mental illness to put them out of their misery. She also has a long history of hating one of the races living in the country, and would hold extreme bias against them if in office. Her opponent is a bumbling idiot who doesn't understand anything about her own country's people, and got into the final stages because she doesn't hate that minorty the first woman hates. Whether the general public likes the first candidate or the second, does that mean she should be allowed to be into power? Even in systems where there are limits for ethical and moral reasons so no one can vote for genocide or some other crazy shit, smaller things can happen that are like this situation. Just because they don't have absolute power doesn't mean oppression and suffering can't happen. For people who do not support either of the final United States candidates, this is exactly what happened.

I also don't like switching leaders so often. I understand this is done to try to more accurately represent the popular opinion of the people, but this can lead to unnecessary sudden policy changes, like when someone undoes things the previous candidate did just to spite them, like Donald Trump undoing certain things because Obama.

Even if you don't agree with me, it's not a flawless system just because you like it, and there are legitimate reasons people don't like it.


At least the Prom Queen is usually someone very good looking. They don't even give us that in a democracy...

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The Empire of Pretantia
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Posts: 39273
Founded: Oct 18, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:54 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Soyouso wrote:I don't understand why people hold it to be so holy. Even if you're not like me and you actually enjoy it, you should at least admit it's not perfect and it certainly has good reasons for people to be turned off by it. They're not doing it because of not wanting justice or idiocy, they just have a different idea of political justice from you.

I'll give some of the thoughts I was having when I was losing faith in democracy, but way before my ideology changed to fascism, to give examples of why someone would turn away from democracy.

For one thing, I was stressed because while I was and still am too young to vote, it would be my vote against everyone else's. If my vote were unpopular, it wouldn't matter because the mainstream narrative, whether it was a good idea or a bad idea, would win. This is something the Democrats learned upon the victory of President Donald Trump, even more considering we almost ended up with another Clinton. I, for one, was happy about that, but can see even to this day a lot of Democrats are STILL questioning whether he legitimately won, blaming everything except Hillary Clinton's shitty campaign skills and trail of scandals that made people not trust her. It seems some people only like democracy when they get their way, an interesting observation I made. This mentality causes 'us vs them', which is very bad for our society. Why do you think America is so politically divided? Because that kind of divide is inevitable in a democratic nation. Altogether it holds back progress because everyone is too busy fucking with what ever the 'other side' is in their situation, that the way we handle common threats becomes weaker.

Just because the majority wants something doesn't make it good. I don't like the idea of the government being run like a high school prom queen election. Popularity does not mean you are worthy of the privilege of being the beacon of hope, protection, uniting force, and in a way a representative of your country. I cannot stand many politicians nowadays, a lot of them are a fucking joke to me. I don't trust some schmuck who knows how to throw sweet sounding lies and money at people to be involved in government. People generally don't pick someone because they want to give them what they need, but what they want even if it's bad for them. There is also the possibility of people only voting for someone because they're not the other guy. I admit this is one of the reasons I rooted for Donny. Clinton was a wreck. But it sure ain't the only reason.

Imagine you live in a direct democractic system, where any preexisting laws can be changed. A candidate comes along, and let's say she wants to abolish the mental health budget and shoot anyone with a mental illness to put them out of their misery. She also has a long history of hating one of the races living in the country, and would hold extreme bias against them if in office. Her opponent is a bumbling idiot who doesn't understand anything about her own country's people, and got into the final stages because she doesn't hate that minorty the first woman hates. Whether the general public likes the first candidate or the second, does that mean she should be allowed to be into power? Even in systems where there are limits for ethical and moral reasons so no one can vote for genocide or some other crazy shit, smaller things can happen that are like this situation. Just because they don't have absolute power doesn't mean oppression and suffering can't happen. For people who do not support either of the final United States candidates, this is exactly what happened.

I also don't like switching leaders so often. I understand this is done to try to more accurately represent the popular opinion of the people, but this can lead to unnecessary sudden policy changes, like when someone undoes things the previous candidate did just to spite them, like Donald Trump undoing certain things because Obama.

Even if you don't agree with me, it's not a flawless system just because you like it, and there are legitimate reasons people don't like it.


At least the Prom Queen is usually someone very good looking. They don't even give us that in a democracy...

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Sovaal
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Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Sovaal » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:42 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Soyouso wrote:I don't understand why people hold it to be so holy. Even if you're not like me and you actually enjoy it, you should at least admit it's not perfect and it certainly has good reasons for people to be turned off by it. They're not doing it because of not wanting justice or idiocy, they just have a different idea of political justice from you.

I'll give some of the thoughts I was having when I was losing faith in democracy, but way before my ideology changed to fascism, to give examples of why someone would turn away from democracy.

For one thing, I was stressed because while I was and still am too young to vote, it would be my vote against everyone else's. If my vote were unpopular, it wouldn't matter because the mainstream narrative, whether it was a good idea or a bad idea, would win. This is something the Democrats learned upon the victory of President Donald Trump, even more considering we almost ended up with another Clinton. I, for one, was happy about that, but can see even to this day a lot of Democrats are STILL questioning whether he legitimately won, blaming everything except Hillary Clinton's shitty campaign skills and trail of scandals that made people not trust her. It seems some people only like democracy when they get their way, an interesting observation I made. This mentality causes 'us vs them', which is very bad for our society. Why do you think America is so politically divided? Because that kind of divide is inevitable in a democratic nation. Altogether it holds back progress because everyone is too busy fucking with what ever the 'other side' is in their situation, that the way we handle common threats becomes weaker.

Just because the majority wants something doesn't make it good. I don't like the idea of the government being run like a high school prom queen election. Popularity does not mean you are worthy of the privilege of being the beacon of hope, protection, uniting force, and in a way a representative of your country. I cannot stand many politicians nowadays, a lot of them are a fucking joke to me. I don't trust some schmuck who knows how to throw sweet sounding lies and money at people to be involved in government. People generally don't pick someone because they want to give them what they need, but what they want even if it's bad for them. There is also the possibility of people only voting for someone because they're not the other guy. I admit this is one of the reasons I rooted for Donny. Clinton was a wreck. But it sure ain't the only reason.

Imagine you live in a direct democractic system, where any preexisting laws can be changed. A candidate comes along, and let's say she wants to abolish the mental health budget and shoot anyone with a mental illness to put them out of their misery. She also has a long history of hating one of the races living in the country, and would hold extreme bias against them if in office. Her opponent is a bumbling idiot who doesn't understand anything about her own country's people, and got into the final stages because she doesn't hate that minorty the first woman hates. Whether the general public likes the first candidate or the second, does that mean she should be allowed to be into power? Even in systems where there are limits for ethical and moral reasons so no one can vote for genocide or some other crazy shit, smaller things can happen that are like this situation. Just because they don't have absolute power doesn't mean oppression and suffering can't happen. For people who do not support either of the final United States candidates, this is exactly what happened.

I also don't like switching leaders so often. I understand this is done to try to more accurately represent the popular opinion of the people, but this can lead to unnecessary sudden policy changes, like when someone undoes things the previous candidate did just to spite them, like Donald Trump undoing certain things because Obama.

Even if you don't agree with me, it's not a flawless system just because you like it, and there are legitimate reasons people don't like it.


At least the Prom Queen is usually someone very good looking. They don't even give us that in a democracy...

Because the Hapsburgs where all gorgeous, especially in the end, right? :roll:
Most of the time I have no idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about.

”Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time." -
Winston Churchill, 1947.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - George Orwell

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San Lumen
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Posts: 81235
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:50 am

Soyouso wrote:I don't understand why people hold it to be so holy. Even if you're not like me and you actually enjoy it, you should at least admit it's not perfect and it certainly has good reasons for people to be turned off by it. They're not doing it because of not wanting justice or idiocy, they just have a different idea of political justice from you.

I'll give some of the thoughts I was having when I was losing faith in democracy, but way before my ideology changed to fascism, to give examples of why someone would turn away from democracy.

For one thing, I was stressed because while I was and still am too young to vote, it would be my vote against everyone else's. If my vote were unpopular, it wouldn't matter because the mainstream narrative, whether it was a good idea or a bad idea, would win. This is something the Democrats learned upon the victory of President Donald Trump, even more considering we almost ended up with another Clinton. I, for one, was happy about that, but can see even to this day a lot of Democrats are STILL questioning whether he legitimately won, blaming everything except Hillary Clinton's shitty campaign skills and trail of scandals that made people not trust her. It seems some people only like democracy when they get their way, an interesting observation I made. This mentality causes 'us vs them', which is very bad for our society. Why do you think America is so politically divided? Because that kind of divide is inevitable in a democratic nation. Altogether it holds back progress because everyone is too busy fucking with what ever the 'other side' is in their situation, that the way we handle common threats becomes weaker.

Just because the majority wants something doesn't make it good. I don't like the idea of the government being run like a high school prom queen election. Popularity does not mean you are worthy of the privilege of being the beacon of hope, protection, uniting force, and in a way a representative of your country. I cannot stand many politicians nowadays, a lot of them are a fucking joke to me. I don't trust some schmuck who knows how to throw sweet sounding lies and money at people to be involved in government. People generally don't pick someone because they want to give them what they need, but what they want even if it's bad for them. There is also the possibility of people only voting for someone because they're not the other guy. I admit this is one of the reasons I rooted for Donny. Clinton was a wreck. But it sure ain't the only reason.

Imagine you live in a direct democractic system, where any preexisting laws can be changed. A candidate comes along, and let's say she wants to abolish the mental health budget and shoot anyone with a mental illness to put them out of their misery. She also has a long history of hating one of the races living in the country, and would hold extreme bias against them if in office. Her opponent is a bumbling idiot who doesn't understand anything about her own country's people, and got into the final stages because she doesn't hate that minorty the first woman hates. Whether the general public likes the first candidate or the second, does that mean she should be allowed to be into power? Even in systems where there are limits for ethical and moral reasons so no one can vote for genocide or some other crazy shit, smaller things can happen that are like this situation. Just because they don't have absolute power doesn't mean oppression and suffering can't happen. For people who do not support either of the final United States candidates, this is exactly what happened.

I also don't like switching leaders so often. I understand this is done to try to more accurately represent the popular opinion of the people, but this can lead to unnecessary sudden policy changes, like when someone undoes things the previous candidate did just to spite them, like Donald Trump undoing certain things because Obama.

Even if you don't agree with me, it's not a flawless system just because you like it, and there are legitimate reasons people don't like it.

So how would you change the system?

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Herador
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Posts: 8038
Founded: Mar 08, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Herador » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:23 am

Sovaal wrote:
Because the Hapsburgs where all gorgeous, especially in the end, right? :roll:

The ideal man, truly.
Image
My politics are real simple: I just want to be able to afford to go to the doctor.

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Sovaal
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Posts: 13695
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Sovaal » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:24 am

Herador wrote:
Sovaal wrote:
Because the Hapsburgs where all gorgeous, especially in the end, right? :roll:

The ideal man, truly.
Image

Everybody wants their aunt to be their grandmother, right?
Most of the time I have no idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about.

”Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time." -
Winston Churchill, 1947.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - George Orwell

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Genivaria
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Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:25 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Soyouso wrote:I don't understand why people hold it to be so holy. Even if you're not like me and you actually enjoy it, you should at least admit it's not perfect and it certainly has good reasons for people to be turned off by it. They're not doing it because of not wanting justice or idiocy, they just have a different idea of political justice from you.

I'll give some of the thoughts I was having when I was losing faith in democracy, but way before my ideology changed to fascism, to give examples of why someone would turn away from democracy.

For one thing, I was stressed because while I was and still am too young to vote, it would be my vote against everyone else's. If my vote were unpopular, it wouldn't matter because the mainstream narrative, whether it was a good idea or a bad idea, would win. This is something the Democrats learned upon the victory of President Donald Trump, even more considering we almost ended up with another Clinton. I, for one, was happy about that, but can see even to this day a lot of Democrats are STILL questioning whether he legitimately won, blaming everything except Hillary Clinton's shitty campaign skills and trail of scandals that made people not trust her. It seems some people only like democracy when they get their way, an interesting observation I made. This mentality causes 'us vs them', which is very bad for our society. Why do you think America is so politically divided? Because that kind of divide is inevitable in a democratic nation. Altogether it holds back progress because everyone is too busy fucking with what ever the 'other side' is in their situation, that the way we handle common threats becomes weaker.

Just because the majority wants something doesn't make it good. I don't like the idea of the government being run like a high school prom queen election. Popularity does not mean you are worthy of the privilege of being the beacon of hope, protection, uniting force, and in a way a representative of your country. I cannot stand many politicians nowadays, a lot of them are a fucking joke to me. I don't trust some schmuck who knows how to throw sweet sounding lies and money at people to be involved in government. People generally don't pick someone because they want to give them what they need, but what they want even if it's bad for them. There is also the possibility of people only voting for someone because they're not the other guy. I admit this is one of the reasons I rooted for Donny. Clinton was a wreck. But it sure ain't the only reason.

Imagine you live in a direct democractic system, where any preexisting laws can be changed. A candidate comes along, and let's say she wants to abolish the mental health budget and shoot anyone with a mental illness to put them out of their misery. She also has a long history of hating one of the races living in the country, and would hold extreme bias against them if in office. Her opponent is a bumbling idiot who doesn't understand anything about her own country's people, and got into the final stages because she doesn't hate that minorty the first woman hates. Whether the general public likes the first candidate or the second, does that mean she should be allowed to be into power? Even in systems where there are limits for ethical and moral reasons so no one can vote for genocide or some other crazy shit, smaller things can happen that are like this situation. Just because they don't have absolute power doesn't mean oppression and suffering can't happen. For people who do not support either of the final United States candidates, this is exactly what happened.

I also don't like switching leaders so often. I understand this is done to try to more accurately represent the popular opinion of the people, but this can lead to unnecessary sudden policy changes, like when someone undoes things the previous candidate did just to spite them, like Donald Trump undoing certain things because Obama.

Even if you don't agree with me, it's not a flawless system just because you like it, and there are legitimate reasons people don't like it.


At least the Prom Queen is usually someone very good looking. They don't even give us that in a democracy...

The fact that physical appearance is how you measure worth says alot about you.
Anarcho-Communist, Democratic Confederalist
"The Earth isn't dying, it's being killed. And those killing it have names and addresses." -Utah Phillips

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Veleth
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 63
Founded: Jul 15, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Veleth » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:29 am

Nuevo Dixie wrote:Democracy is an utterly overrated system of government because having uneducated turds make important national decisions seems like it would be detrimental to a country. As Socrates once said, "Who would you want want steering a boat; an educated Captain, who has spent his life learning to sail, or an uneducated peasant mob?". That same logic should go for countries as well, right? Wouldn't it be better if educated elites ran a country?


We could reform the education system so that people are better suited to making democratic decisions.

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Tekeristan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5344
Founded: Mar 08, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Tekeristan » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:31 am

Veleth wrote:
Nuevo Dixie wrote:Democracy is an utterly overrated system of government because having uneducated turds make important national decisions seems like it would be detrimental to a country. As Socrates once said, "Who would you want want steering a boat; an educated Captain, who has spent his life learning to sail, or an uneducated peasant mob?". That same logic should go for countries as well, right? Wouldn't it be better if educated elites ran a country?


We could reform the education system so that people are better suited to making democratic decisions.

B-But that's socialism!

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San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 81235
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:36 am

Veleth wrote:
Nuevo Dixie wrote:Democracy is an utterly overrated system of government because having uneducated turds make important national decisions seems like it would be detrimental to a country. As Socrates once said, "Who would you want want steering a boat; an educated Captain, who has spent his life learning to sail, or an uneducated peasant mob?". That same logic should go for countries as well, right? Wouldn't it be better if educated elites ran a country?


We could reform the education system so that people are better suited to making democratic decisions.


and how would you reform it?

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Sovaal
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13695
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Sovaal » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:00 am

Veleth wrote:
Nuevo Dixie wrote:Democracy is an utterly overrated system of government because having uneducated turds make important national decisions seems like it would be detrimental to a country. As Socrates once said, "Who would you want want steering a boat; an educated Captain, who has spent his life learning to sail, or an uneducated peasant mob?". That same logic should go for countries as well, right? Wouldn't it be better if educated elites ran a country?


We could reform the education system so that people are better suited to making democratic decisions.

Nah, obviously giving one of those un-educated turds total political power is a better system *nods*
Most of the time I have no idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about.

”Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time." -
Winston Churchill, 1947.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - George Orwell

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69785
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:02 am

San Lumen wrote:
Veleth wrote:
We could reform the education system so that people are better suited to making democratic decisions.


and how would you reform it?

I don't know how he would but one of the first things I would do is change how schools get their funding.
Instead of giving them funding from the local property tax (which means poor communities get poor schools) give all schools the same amount of funding.
Anarcho-Communist, Democratic Confederalist
"The Earth isn't dying, it's being killed. And those killing it have names and addresses." -Utah Phillips

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Tekeristan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5344
Founded: Mar 08, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Tekeristan » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:07 am

Genivaria wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
and how would you reform it?

I don't know how he would but one of the first things I would do is change how schools get their funding.
Instead of giving them funding from the local property tax (which means poor communities get poor schools) give all schools the same amount of funding.

Extensive political classes, anyone?

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69785
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:09 am

Tekeristan wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I don't know how he would but one of the first things I would do is change how schools get their funding.
Instead of giving them funding from the local property tax (which means poor communities get poor schools) give all schools the same amount of funding.

Extensive political classes, anyone?

I am okay with this.
Anarcho-Communist, Democratic Confederalist
"The Earth isn't dying, it's being killed. And those killing it have names and addresses." -Utah Phillips

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Sovaal
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13695
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Sovaal » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:09 am

Genivaria wrote:
Tekeristan wrote:Extensive political classes, anyone?

I am okay with this.

Economic courses as well.
Most of the time I have no idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about.

”Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time." -
Winston Churchill, 1947.

"Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon – so long as there is no answer to it – gives claws to the weak.” - George Orwell

User avatar
Tekeristan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5344
Founded: Mar 08, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Tekeristan » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:15 am

Sovaal wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I am okay with this.

Economic courses as well.

Of course.

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 69785
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Genivaria » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:15 am

Sovaal wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I am okay with this.

Economic courses as well.

I should probably mention that both Government and Economics were required classes at my HS.
Anarcho-Communist, Democratic Confederalist
"The Earth isn't dying, it's being killed. And those killing it have names and addresses." -Utah Phillips

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