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Why does everyone think democracy is so great?

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Jelmatt
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Postby Jelmatt » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:02 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Iridencia wrote:

The point of democracy is to:

A) Have the people whose lives are actually effected by the decisions of a leader to be able to choose a leader instead of just putting up with whoever is handed to them, and

B) To maintain a safety net of power over said decisions for the times when the leader inevitably fucks up because they're not perfect.

If you're really the best of the best, you should have no trouble demonstrating it to the rest of us and earning your authority in a fair measure of merit. You sure as hell are not going to just be given the benefit of the doubt or have us take some vague On High's word for it that you know what you're doing, which is what authoritarianism is. You want power? Prove to us, the ones who stand to gain or lose, that you know how to use it. If you do good, you keep it. If you fuck up, you lose it. As this is our livelihood at stake here, we will be the judge of whether or not you failed or succeeded, not some indistinct Superman who thinks he's special enough to speak on behalf of everyone.


Otherwise, who is the one saying that you're "naturally better" at being a ruler? Who decides that? Furthermore, why should you care when no one can displace you?


No one decides if you're the best ruler or not. You either are, or aren't. That's the inherent fallacy with democracy (that the majority can actually decide who is the best leader).

You don't vote on who is the best mathematician or the best chemist, the best simply is the best.


The problem is they simply aren't comparable.

To be the best mathematician, you have to be smart and good at math. To be the best chemist, you have to be smart and good at chemistry. I'm simplifying, but you get the point. Those are matters of skill.

Ruling isn't the same.

The fact is, we don't even agree on what makes a good ruler. No one exactly agrees. Let's go with a definition that they "serve the common good," however. Now, what the hell is the common good exactly? Is it everybody being happy? Is it everyone having their needs fulfilled? Is it people getting what they want? Is it freedom? Is it authority? Is it equality? Is it everyone being in their rightful place in the social hierarchy?

And what is "skill" in ruling, anyway? Ability to maintain power? To achieve the common good? To look nice as you sit upon your throne?

I should also note that mathematics and chemistry aren't democratic because math and chemistry aren't exactly institutions which have control over people's lives. They don't exercise power.

There are also structural problems with authoritarian regimes, regardless of the person in charge. The problem isn't even whether democracy makes for better rulers. Democracy distributes power, authoritarian regimes concentrate it. Guess what? Concentrated power tends to mean inefficiency--the famous anti-central planning argument of the local knowledge problem applies to the political realm, too--corruption--there is only one interest which the ruler(s) are accountable to (themselves), rather than the interests of the whole people (a full democracy, by contrast, provides a way for people to punish rulers which do not represent their interests)--and instability--when the people dislike a ruler in an authoritarian regime, really the only way to oust them is by violence. In a democracy, you can vote them out. \
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:12 am

Just because democracy has thrown up some utter howlers of common sense-defyingly bad judgement like Brexit and the Trump regime (insert BUT AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY™ here) does not mean that it is an inherently bad system. It just needs a properly informed electorate that don't engage in anti-intellectualism every time something conflicts with their rose-tinted view of the world.
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:15 am

Vassenor wrote:Just because democracy has thrown up some utter howlers of common sense-defyingly bad judgement like Brexit and the Trump regime (insert BUT AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY™ here) does not mean that it is an inherently bad system. It just needs a properly informed electorate that don't engage in anti-intellectualism every time something conflicts with their rose-tinted view of the world.

Too bad that won't happen for the foreseeable future.
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War Gears
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Postby War Gears » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:18 am

Democracy is the most flexible and pluralistic system which we have, to date. Dictatorship and one party states have stagnated and died because they cannot allow new ideas to enter their system because they cannot afford the risk of them challenging the status quo, a fear that democracy does not have. Of course, I disagree with liberal democracy and want a more technical (corporatist) and youth-based system in place. But the fundamental principles remain the same.

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Aellex
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Postby Aellex » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:19 am

Tyranny by Majority is the only legitimate form of governance and Democracy happens to be the closest to that concept while being incredibly more stable.
So, hé.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:26 am

New haven america wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Just because democracy has thrown up some utter howlers of common sense-defyingly bad judgement like Brexit and the Trump regime (insert BUT AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY™ here) does not mean that it is an inherently bad system. It just needs a properly informed electorate that don't engage in anti-intellectualism every time something conflicts with their rose-tinted view of the world.

Too bad that won't happen for the foreseeable future.


Aye. Sadly this is still an apt description, even if it is frequently misatributed:

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
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War Gears
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Postby War Gears » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:27 am

Vassenor wrote:Just because democracy has thrown up some utter howlers of common sense-defyingly bad judgement like Brexit and the Trump regime (insert BUT AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY™ here) does not mean that it is an inherently bad system. It just needs a properly informed electorate that don't engage in anti-intellectualism every time something conflicts with their rose-tinted view of the world.


Intellectuals tend to be the ones with the "rose-tinted view," rather than the working class who have basically had it with the intellectual elite snubbing their noses at them.
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Elhazia
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Postby Elhazia » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:27 am

I am a huge supporter of democracy.
Let me try to explain...

In most of the worldview issues, there is no "right" and "wrong" answer. No matter 99% of people think that their opinion is the only correct (and acceptable) one, it is all about worldview - what are your priorities and what kind of society do you want.
If your priority is not killing people - you will be against euthanasia. If your priority is that patient do not suffer - you will support it. Same thing with abortion.
If your priority is that the fewer people do drugs - you will be against making marijuana legal. If your priority is that dealers do not make money - you will support it.
There are endless examples of this.

It is also about the direction of society.
If your ideal society is more traditional one - you will probably oppose same-sex marriage, public nudity and prostitution. If you wand more liberal society - your views will be different.
If you want more cosmopolitan society, you will support immigration and globalisation. If you don't like cosmopolitan societies, you will oppose it.

So, there is NO right and wrong answer on many of these questions. It is all about our different ideals and worldview. What is someone's utopia is another person's dystopia.

So, what is the answer? Democracy! If we can't make everyone satisfied, let's make as many people as possible. So, do what majority wants.
Also, decentralisation is very important. If a country is large, each region should decide about itself. So, that makes more people happy. And no region is imposing their views to anyone else.

And, what is the biggest evil in democracy? Persuasion and propaganda! Especially subliminal and hidden one. Because, if someone can manipulate with people, he can have unproportional influence on decision making. That's why we need to insist on transparency.
Last edited by Elhazia on Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:34 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:29 am

War Gears wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Just because democracy has thrown up some utter howlers of common sense-defyingly bad judgement like Brexit and the Trump regime (insert BUT AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY™ here) does not mean that it is an inherently bad system. It just needs a properly informed electorate that don't engage in anti-intellectualism every time something conflicts with their rose-tinted view of the world.


Intellectuals tend to be the ones with the "rose-tinted view," rather than the working class who have basically had it with the intellectual elite snubbing their noses at them.


Right, because looking at what the facts actually say rather than what people want them to say is bad. :roll:
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Angora Guanaco
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Angora Guanaco » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:33 am

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others - Winston Churchill

Why do we say it's so great?
Because, compared to all the others, it is.
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Herador
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Postby Herador » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:36 am

New haven america wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Just because democracy has thrown up some utter howlers of common sense-defyingly bad judgement like Brexit and the Trump regime (insert BUT AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY™ here) does not mean that it is an inherently bad system. It just needs a properly informed electorate that don't engage in anti-intellectualism every time something conflicts with their rose-tinted view of the world.

Too bad that won't happen for the foreseeable future.

The shit thing is it isn't even that complicated to start the turnaround on anti-intellectualism either. Just make news channel's publically funded so they no longer rely on ad revenue and then to quit letting balance fallacy bullshit into the news cycle.

Those two things might be enough to actually get the ball rolling.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:37 am

Herador wrote:
New haven america wrote:Too bad that won't happen for the foreseeable future.

The shit thing is it isn't even that complicated to start the turnaround on anti-intellectualism either. Just make news channel's publically funded so they no longer rely on ad revenue and then to quit letting balance fallacy bullshit into the news cycle.

Those two things might be enough to actually get the ball rolling.


Doesn't help when the politicians are the ones actively pushing the anti-intellectualism cart. See also "Britain is tired of the so-called 'experts' and their lies" spiel.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Ex-Nation

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:39 am

Because it's the best way to ensure everyone has a say in how they are ruled. It aint perfect, but what is
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Herador
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Postby Herador » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:39 am

Vassenor wrote:
Herador wrote:The shit thing is it isn't even that complicated to start the turnaround on anti-intellectualism either. Just make news channel's publically funded so they no longer rely on ad revenue and then to quit letting balance fallacy bullshit into the news cycle.

Those two things might be enough to actually get the ball rolling.


Doesn't help when the politicians are the ones actively pushing the anti-intellectualism cart. See also "Britain is tired of the so-called 'experts' and their lies" spiel.

I'd wager that's a symptom. You start giving people a decent venue to view the news, not unbiased or whatever, just not so fucking stupid it hurts, and I think the way politicians operate will change with it.

Not all at once, but I think it'd change.

E: Also news bloggers need to be thrown in a fucking hole, but that's a whole other thing.
Last edited by Herador on Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gondore and Arnore
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Postby Gondore and Arnore » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:41 am

Because many people want to have personal power and not many people are righteous today.

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Herador
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Postby Herador » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:42 am

Gondore and Arnore wrote:Because many people want to have personal power and not many people are righteous today.

What does that even mean?
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Gondore and Arnore
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Postby Gondore and Arnore » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:46 am

Herador wrote:
Gondore and Arnore wrote:Because many people want to have personal power and not many people are righteous today.

What does that even mean?


It means many people are power-greedy and elect politicians like Merkel or Macron who are themselves power-greedy and belong to the most evil country leaders.

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Herador
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Postby Herador » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:47 am

Gondore and Arnore wrote:
Herador wrote:What does that even mean?


It means many people are power-greedy and elect politicians like Merkel or Macron who are themselves power-greedy and belong to the most evil country leaders.

...alright then.
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East Angria
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Postby East Angria » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:49 am

Nuevo Dixie wrote:Democracy is an utterly overrated system of government because having uneducated turds make important national decisions seems like it would be detrimental to a country. As Socrates once said, "Who would you want want steering a boat; an educated Captain, who has spent his life learning to sail, or an uneducated peasant mob?". That same logic should go for countries as well, right? Wouldn't it be better if educated elites ran a country?

You seem to be coming from an imperialist standpoint. Sure, if your priority is being a jingoistic expansionist empire, a monarchy or dictatorship will do the job much better. It's still terrible for all the people living under and around it.
Democracy covers the middle ground between monarchy and oligarchy, and anarchy, the latter of which would be my ideal. Because I don't see my fellow human beings as "uneducated turds" :eyebrow:
In an anarchy, the problem of a nation state would essentially removed. Everyone could engage in free association with other invididuals and confederations, and influence their own life and that of those around them in a direct manner. Nobody has the power necessary for making life terrible for everyone else involved. Everybody keeps everybody else in check. It is the perfect system.
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Aellex
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Ex-Nation

Postby Aellex » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:53 am

East Angria wrote:[
You seem to be coming from an imperialist standpoint. Sure, if your priority is being a jingoistic expansionist empire, a monarchy or dictatorship will do the job much better. It's still terrible for all the people living under and around it.
Democracy covers the middle ground between monarchy and oligarchy, and anarchy, the latter of which would be my ideal. Because I don't see my fellow human beings as "uneducated turds" :eyebrow:
In an anarchy, the problem of a nation state would essentially removed. Everyone could engage in free association with other invididuals and confederations, and influence their own life and that of those around them in a direct manner. Nobody has the power necessary for making life terrible for everyone else involved. Everybody keeps everybody else in check. It is the perfect system.

As Somalia proved perfectly! * nod nod *
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Herador
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Postby Herador » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:56 am

Aellex wrote:
East Angria wrote:[
You seem to be coming from an imperialist standpoint. Sure, if your priority is being a jingoistic expansionist empire, a monarchy or dictatorship will do the job much better. It's still terrible for all the people living under and around it.
Democracy covers the middle ground between monarchy and oligarchy, and anarchy, the latter of which would be my ideal. Because I don't see my fellow human beings as "uneducated turds" :eyebrow:
In an anarchy, the problem of a nation state would essentially removed. Everyone could engage in free association with other invididuals and confederations, and influence their own life and that of those around them in a direct manner. Nobody has the power necessary for making life terrible for everyone else involved. Everybody keeps everybody else in check. It is the perfect system.

As Somalia proved perfectly! * nod nod *

It seems like the more I hear about someones ideal form of anarchy, the more I can't help but feel it will just become some Mad Max-ian parody of itself.

...Mad Marxian.
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Aellex
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Ex-Nation

Postby Aellex » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:01 am

Herador wrote:It seems like the more I hear about someones ideal form of anarchy, the more I can't help but feel it will just become some Mad Max-ian parody of itself.

...Mad Marxian.

Héhé. But yeah, Sophocles was right when he said that there is no greater evil than anarchy. Take away the State and chaos and destruction rather than peace and amity will immediately ensue.
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Valyrian Freeholds
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Ex-Nation

Postby Valyrian Freeholds » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:04 am

Nuevo Dixie wrote:Democracy is an utterly overrated system of government because having uneducated turds make important national decisions seems like it would be detrimental to a country. As Socrates once said, "Who would you want want steering a boat; an educated Captain, who has spent his life learning to sail, or an uneducated peasant mob?". That same logic should go for countries as well, right? Wouldn't it be better if educated elites ran a country?

Democracy done wrong (as it is right now) is the majority imposing their will on the rest of the country. Democracy should be about compromise, about different parties coming to agreements on whats best for the country as a whole.
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East Angria
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Postby East Angria » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:33 am

Aellex wrote:As Somalia proved perfectly! * nod nod *

Somalia has in recent years been a warzone where multiple warlords and fundamentalist militias squabbled over dominance. If anything, this is an oversaturation of hierarchy and power, and the complete opposite of the state of anarchy that social anarchists strive for.
Aellex wrote:Héhé. But yeah, Sophocles was right when he said that there is no greater evil than anarchy. Take away the State and chaos and destruction rather than peace and amity will immediately ensue.

You can have an organized and cooperative society without imposition of authoritarian violence from a select few.
Valyrian Freeholds wrote:
Nuevo Dixie wrote:Democracy is an utterly overrated system of government because having uneducated turds make important national decisions seems like it would be detrimental to a country. As Socrates once said, "Who would you want want steering a boat; an educated Captain, who has spent his life learning to sail, or an uneducated peasant mob?". That same logic should go for countries as well, right? Wouldn't it be better if educated elites ran a country?

Democracy done wrong (as it is right now) is the majority imposing their will on the rest of the country. Democracy should be about compromise, about different parties coming to agreements on whats best for the country as a whole.

And this is exactly what anarchism is all about.
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Infected Mushroom
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:38 am

Because people cannot accept the notion that they may be UNDESERVING of having a personal say in how things should be done. People NEED to believe they are worth just as much as everyone else or else they will feel crushed. They don't want to strive for greatness, they just want a default token level of equality handed to them. The equal opportunity to not change anything but act like things are changing, to seem like they are choosing but not really choosing.

Also, its considered politically incorrect to say otherwise and people don't want to be ostracised by a cliquish society dominated by office overlords, trumpeters over the internet cyberspace, and neighbourhood whisperers.

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