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by Albrenia » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:05 pm
by HMS Queen Elizabeth » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:20 pm
Albrenia wrote:Heh, not really propagandist, just the most fitting term I could think of at the time. Obviously people -should- uphold the vows they make, but the world isn't perfect and I don't see much value in forcing someone to stay married who truly doesn't want to.
by Socio Polor » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:43 pm
Nuevo Dixie wrote:Democracy is an utterly overrated system of government because having uneducated turds make important national decisions seems like it would be detrimental to a country. As Socrates once said, "Who would you want want steering a boat; an educated Captain, who has spent his life learning to sail, or an uneducated peasant mob?". That same logic should go for countries as well, right? Wouldn't it be better if educated elites ran a country?
by San Lumen » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:04 pm
Socio Polor wrote:Nuevo Dixie wrote:Democracy is an utterly overrated system of government because having uneducated turds make important national decisions seems like it would be detrimental to a country. As Socrates once said, "Who would you want want steering a boat; an educated Captain, who has spent his life learning to sail, or an uneducated peasant mob?". That same logic should go for countries as well, right? Wouldn't it be better if educated elites ran a country?
What makes democracy great is because it allows citizens to vote for who they want leading their country, to make their laws, etc. Though people are opt to vote for someone who has experience in whatever they're voting for. Can't really bring Trump under this category sense it was the electoral college that got him in.
by Herador » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:31 pm
San Lumen wrote:Socio Polor wrote:What makes democracy great is because it allows citizens to vote for who they want leading their country, to make their laws, etc. Though people are opt to vote for someone who has experience in whatever they're voting for. Can't really bring Trump under this category sense it was the electoral college that got him in.
I agree with all of this. The electoral college isn't democratic as it makes certain votes count more than others.
by Infected Mushroom » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:17 pm
by Infected Mushroom » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:03 am
by Socialist Czechia » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:51 am
"Those who reached my boundary, their seed is not; their hearts and their souls are finished forever and ever. As for those who had assembled before them on the sea, the full flame was their front before the harbour mouths, and a wall of metal upon the shore surrounded them. They were dragged, overturned, and laid low upon the beach; slain and made heaps from stern to bow of their galleys, while all their things were cast upon the water." - Ramesses III., Battle of the Delta
by San Lumen » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:28 am
Socialist Czechia wrote:Most importantly, there's strange view, that parliamentary 'liberal democracy' of western type is the only way for democracy to work.
There are many kinds of democracy. Is Iran democracy? Not by western standards, but you can't call it dictatorship. Would Swiss type of direct democracy worked everywhere? Perhaps not, perhaps it's too local and incomparable case, and France, for example, would exploded, considering they are unstable state since they stormed Bastilla. But why not try it?
In Czech Republic, current government promised, finally after 25 years we have mentioned it in constitution, that 'Popular referendum' will be finally a thing - so far, they passed only one, when citizens vote to join EU. More than year it's stucked in parliament, and elections are coming now. I guess they feel threatened by something more resembling will of the people.
If you need to argue, that people are too stupid to decide things like staying in NATO or having death penalty, then you don't believe in democracy and you should admit that dictatorship or oligarchy is completely acceptable and justified.
by Socialist Czechia » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:23 am
"Those who reached my boundary, their seed is not; their hearts and their souls are finished forever and ever. As for those who had assembled before them on the sea, the full flame was their front before the harbour mouths, and a wall of metal upon the shore surrounded them. They were dragged, overturned, and laid low upon the beach; slain and made heaps from stern to bow of their galleys, while all their things were cast upon the water." - Ramesses III., Battle of the Delta
by Aguaria Major » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:36 am
by The Dolphin Isles » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:43 am
by Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:52 am
Socialist Czechia wrote:Most importantly, there's strange view, that parliamentary 'liberal democracy' of western type is the only way for democracy to work.
There are many kinds of democracy. Is Iran democracy? Not by western standards, but you can't call it dictatorship. Would Swiss type of direct democracy worked everywhere? Perhaps not, perhaps it's too local and incomparable case, and France, for example, would exploded, considering they are unstable state since they stormed Bastilla. But why not try it?
In Czech Republic, current government promised, finally after 25 years we have mentioned it in constitution, that 'Popular referendum' will be finally a thing - so far, they passed only one, when citizens vote to join EU. More than year it's stucked in parliament, and elections are coming now. I guess they feel threatened by something more resembling will of the people.
If you need to argue, that people are too stupid to decide things like staying in NATO or having death penalty, then you don't believe in democracy and you should admit that dictatorship or oligarchy is completely acceptable and justified.
by Omnonia » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:57 pm
Aguaria Major wrote:For anyone in this forum who deposes democracy, are you familiar with Ben Franklin's old saying, "Democracy is the worst form of government except for every other form of government"?
by Oldenfranck » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:27 pm
Nuevo Dixie wrote:Democracy is an utterly overrated system of government because having uneducated turds make important national decisions seems like it would be detrimental to a country. As Socrates once said, "Who would you want want steering a boat; an educated Captain, who has spent his life learning to sail, or an uneducated peasant mob?". That same logic should go for countries as well, right? Wouldn't it be better if educated elites ran a country?
by Socialist Czechia » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:39 am
Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States wrote:Iran has little respect for human rights, and can therefore not really claim to be a democracy. I'll explain this in more detail if you want.
Referenda are good tools in theory, but in practise they give no real indication of popular will: only an idea of which side can rally the most people. Therefore, referenda are not the democratic tools they're hyped up to be. They are skewed in favour of people who want a certain change to happen, as people who support the status quo or the people who are unafflicted simply don't turn up.
Austria
Argentina
Australia
Belgium
Bolivia
Brazil
Chile
Costa Rica
Cyprus
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
Egypt
Fiji
France (senate only)
Gabon
Greece
Guatemala
Honduras
Italy
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Mexico
Nauru
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Singapore
Switzerland (Schaffhausen)
Thailand
Turkey
Uruguay
"Those who reached my boundary, their seed is not; their hearts and their souls are finished forever and ever. As for those who had assembled before them on the sea, the full flame was their front before the harbour mouths, and a wall of metal upon the shore surrounded them. They were dragged, overturned, and laid low upon the beach; slain and made heaps from stern to bow of their galleys, while all their things were cast upon the water." - Ramesses III., Battle of the Delta
by San Lumen » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:52 am
Socialist Czechia wrote:Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States wrote:Iran has little respect for human rights, and can therefore not really claim to be a democracy. I'll explain this in more detail if you want.
Referenda are good tools in theory, but in practise they give no real indication of popular will: only an idea of which side can rally the most people. Therefore, referenda are not the democratic tools they're hyped up to be. They are skewed in favour of people who want a certain change to happen, as people who support the status quo or the people who are unafflicted simply don't turn up.
As I said, Iran is not democracy by western standards. But it doesn't mean that regime must be necessarily dictatorship. There's amount of theocracy and authoritarianism, but no one can claim it's military state or totalitarian state.
There would be much more democracy, if current constitution of Islamic Republic was interpreted a little differently. If main religious leader was less pushy and Revolutionary Guards stopped directly interfering with elections, that would do it as well.
Yeah, they are indication of popular will - and people who doesn't vote no, who doesn't even bother go to vote, is saying yes, by my opinion.
But it can be easily solved by compulsory voting system. List of countries where people must have an opinion:Austria
Argentina
Australia
Belgium
Bolivia
Brazil
Chile
Costa Rica
Cyprus
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
Egypt
Fiji
France (senate only)
Gabon
Greece
Guatemala
Honduras
Italy
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Mexico
Nauru
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Singapore
Switzerland (Schaffhausen)
Thailand
Turkey
Uruguay
So it's pretty usual and in case almost everyone votes, such voice of the people is much more convincing.
After all, same as you don't have right, but you have duty to pay taxes, why you should have right to ignore voting?
by Socialist Czechia » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:24 am
"Those who reached my boundary, their seed is not; their hearts and their souls are finished forever and ever. As for those who had assembled before them on the sea, the full flame was their front before the harbour mouths, and a wall of metal upon the shore surrounded them. They were dragged, overturned, and laid low upon the beach; slain and made heaps from stern to bow of their galleys, while all their things were cast upon the water." - Ramesses III., Battle of the Delta
by San Lumen » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:03 pm
Socialist Czechia wrote:At least with compulsory voting, then is no doubt that party/candidate with majority of votes represents actual majority of citizens.
As I mentioned, why voting isn't perceived as citizen's duty, same as paying taxes or conscription?
Then again, many people thinks these things are highly tyrannical too
by Herador » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:27 pm
Socialist Czechia wrote:At least with compulsory voting, then is no doubt that party/candidate with majority of votes represents actual majority of citizens.
As I mentioned, why voting isn't perceived as citizen's duty, same as paying taxes or conscription?
Then again, many people thinks these things are highly tyrannical too
by San Lumen » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:28 pm
Herador wrote:Socialist Czechia wrote:At least with compulsory voting, then is no doubt that party/candidate with majority of votes represents actual majority of citizens.
As I mentioned, why voting isn't perceived as citizen's duty, same as paying taxes or conscription?
Then again, many people thinks these things are highly tyrannical too
Both are also punishable for not taking part and people still don't.
I agree with the idea in theory but it doesn't tackle the underlying issue of voter apathy in America which I think is mostly down to gerrymandering, the FPTP system, and the electoral college. All that shit just reinforces people's beliefs that their votes don't matter and things don't change, and if you talk to people who have a habit of not voting I think those would usually be their reasons.
by Catlander » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:28 pm
by Herador » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:30 pm
San Lumen wrote:Herador wrote:Both are also punishable for not taking part and people still don't.
I agree with the idea in theory but it doesn't tackle the underlying issue of voter apathy in America which I think is mostly down to gerrymandering, the FPTP system, and the electoral college. All that shit just reinforces people's beliefs that their votes don't matter and things don't change, and if you talk to people who have a habit of not voting I think those would usually be their reasons.
I like the idea of FPTP. Your much more likely to have a majority government. The electoral college should absolutely be gotten rid of as should gerrymandering
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