The war in the Middle East, a Crusade?

[Soyut]

So I was talking today with my friend about U.S. military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan and he made an interesting point. Every single person we know in America who is not a Christian, is against the war in Iraq/Afghanistan. And every single person we know who is pro-war is a Christian. To be fair, America is nearly %90 Christian and we do know one person who is Christian and against the war, but she is obviously a minority in the U.S.A. And then we got to talking about the strong zionist movements among conservative Christian churches who vote for senators to give billions of dollars worth of military aid to countries like Israel who essentially displace and murder Muslims. And then there is the economics issue. Some Historians contend that the original crusades were simply and excuse for Europe to loot and raid the middle east which was pimpin rich from "silk road" trade with Asia. In fact one of the crusades didn't even reach the middle east, the Catholic army just went to Constantinople and raided the trading capital of the biggest rival church, the Eastern Orthodox sect. It's focus was mostly loot and treasure. It's certainly not a stretch to say that America has a modern-day economic interest in the Middle East. Crude oil, to be blunt.

It's not completely accurate to say that this war is a modern-day crusade, but who else thinks the similarities are striking? or not.

[Tekania]

It's not completely accurate to say that this war is a modern-day crusade, but who else thinks the similarities are striking? or not.

I'm an anti-war left-libertarian US Christian... and I'd say that is a fair assumption on your part. I would also say that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's most likely a duck, stop splitting hairs and admit it most certainly is a modern-day crusade; as a political usurpation of religious ideologies to press an economic agenda on the part of a faction.

[Illithar]

The two wars in the middle east are not crusades. They were not called for by any religious authority (at least on the part of the West) and even though the Crusades had many goals, the main goal was to re-capture the Holy Land for the Byzantine Empire (which no longer exists). Pope Urban II did have the unstated goal of using the Crusades to reunite the Roman and Eastern churches as well. The looting and economic advantages were more of an oppurtunistic plundering than a goal from the start (stated or otherwise).

[Soyut]

The two wars in the middle east are not crusades. They were not called for by any religious authority (at least on the part of the West) and even though the Crusades had many goals, the main goal was to re-capture the Holy Land for the Byzantine Empire (which no longer exists). Pope Urban II did have the unstated goal of using the Crusades to reunite the Roman and Eastern churches as well. The looting and economic advantages were more of an oppurtunistic plundering than a goal from the start (stated or otherwise).

Not called for by a religious authority? Didn't president Bush once say that God spoke to him?

[Bor Dome]

I wouldn't call Eastern Orthodoxy a sect mate, check your history. The goal of the Crusades was to secure places of worship in the Holy Land for use by Christians, because Urban II (Pope who called the First Crusade) got all aroused by some dubious reports of violence against Christians in the Levant. There isn't any doubt people got rich from the Crusades, but the reality is Crusades were not cheap for most people; the Seventh Crusade cost Louis IX four times the royal income of France, hardly a killing in anyones books. The Fourth Crusade, which was aiming for Egypt but ended up in Constantinople, was messed up in the first place because the people who organised it planned for far too many people actually going, to they had to compensate Venice in some way, thus Zara and Constantinople.

[Illithar]

The two wars in the middle east are not crusades. They were not called for by any religious authority (at least on the part of the West) and even though the Crusades had many goals, the main goal was to re-capture the Holy Land for the Byzantine Empire (which no longer exists). Pope Urban II did have the unstated goal of using the Crusades to reunite the Roman and Eastern churches as well. The looting and economic advantages were more of an oppurtunistic plundering than a goal from the start (stated or otherwise).

Not called for by a religious authority? Didn't president Bush once say that God spoke to him?

Bush was not a religious authority. He was a secular leader. There is a difference.

[Angleter]

Hold on... the US and the Pope have allied at Greece's request to take over the Levant for them as an attempt at halting Greece's sorry decline, only to find that the population of the new Levant doesn't want to join Greece on religious grounds, allowing the US and the Pope to use it as an excuse for Christian reunification under Papal authority? WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME?

[The Parkus Empire]

Considering I'm a non-Christian soldier, I'd like to believe it's not a crusade.

[KenKenpachi]

I say your friend is full of shit as I know people who arn't christian who support the war, and who are and don't like it due to the Ten Commandments or some such.

[The Parkus Empire]

While you're right about Iraq, I do know several non-Christians who support that war in Afghanistan.

[The chrisman union]

Actually it sort of is, except the religions have changed. We're brining democracy, not Christianity, to the Middle East, and using as a cover to steal their oil, not their treasure.

[Illithar]

Hold on... the US and the Pope have allied at Greece's request to take over the Levant for them as an attempt at halting Greece's sorry decline, only to find that the population of the new Levant doesn't want to join Greece on religious grounds, allowing the US and the Pope to use it as an excuse for Christian reunification under Papal authority? WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME?

But what you DON'T know is that it was all orchestraed by a secret cabal of socialist Jew bankers to open new markets for draedels.

[Dododecapod]

Well, as a non-christian, I have to say that I do and did support the invasion of Afghanistan, and that I do and did support the war in Iraq. I accept that my initial support for the latter was gained through deceit, and that I would not support it today; but now that it has come to pass, completing the task is incumbent upon us. And I still support the reasons we went to Afghanistan.

And no, I don't see any real comparison to the Crusades. Aside from anything else, we are not attempting to re-christianize the region.

[Soniere]

To be fair, America is nearly %90 Christian...

The United States is 78.5% Christian (51.3% Protestant, 23.9 Roman Catholic, 1.7% Mormon, and 1.6% Other.

Well, as a non-christian, I have to say that I do and did support the invasion of Afghanistan, and that I do and did support the war in Iraq. I accept that my initial support for the latter was gained through deceit, and that I would not support it today; but now that it has come to pass, completing the task is incumbent upon us. And I still support the reasons we went to Afghanistan.

And no, I don't see any real comparison to the Crusades. Aside from anything else, we are not attempting to re-christianize the region.

This mirrors my positions down to the T.

[Allemande]

So I was talking today with my friend about U.S. military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan and he made an interesting point. Every single person we know in America who is not a Christian, is against the war in Iraq/Afghanistan. And every single person we know who is pro-war is a Christian. To be fair, America is nearly %90 Christian and we do know one person who is Christian and against the war, but she is obviously a minority in the U.S.A. And then we got to talking about the strong zionist movements among conservative Christian churches who vote for senators to give billions of dollars worth of military aid to countries like Israel who essentially displace and murder Muslims. And then there is the economics issue. Some Historians contend that the original crusades were simply and excuse for Europe to loot and raid the middle east which was pimpin rich from "silk road" trade with Asia. In fact one of the crusades didn't even reach the middle east, the Catholic army just went to Constantinople and raided the trading capital of the biggest rival church, the Eastern Orthodox sect. It's focus was mostly loot and treasure. It's certainly not a stretch to say that America has a modern-day economic interest in the Middle East. Crude oil, to be blunt.

It's not completely accurate to say that this war is a modern-day crusade, but who else thinks the similarities are striking? or not.

I'm guessing you don't live here (in America).

I know many Christians who opposed the invasion of Iraq (including myself); I know many non-Christians who supported it.

I use the past tense because once we were in, the consensus was that leaving would not be easy; one should, after all, generally try to clean up one's messes.

I should also note that there are several conflicts and potential conflicts in the region: "The war" is no single thing. There is Afghanistan, there is Iraq, there is the question of Iran's nuclear ambitions, there is the question of how best to resolve the tension between Israel and some of her neighbours. While related and tied together in many complex ways, these are not a single issue.

Beyond that, those Americans who were most fervent about establishing a permanent American presence in the Middle East had bigger fish to fry. Oil was not the issue for them, at least in the sense of it being a source of wealth; they saw control of the Middle East as a vehicle for bolstering and increasing American power on a global scale: Essentially, they wanted the Arabs' "oil weapon" to become America's "oil weapon", especially for use against China.

I am glad to see the PNAC ("Project for a New American Century") crowd discredited; with luck, America will eventually be able to return to being just a Republic again, as opposed to being an Empire (I may not like Pat Buchanan, but d-mn-d if the man didn't get that issue right!).

[Bazatia]

So I was talking today with my friend about U.S. military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan and he made an interesting point. Every single person we know in America who is not a Christian, is against the war in Iraq/Afghanistan. And every single person we know who is pro-war is a Christian. To be fair, America is nearly %90 Christian and we do know one person who is Christian and against the war, but she is obviously a minority in the U.S.A. And then we got to talking about the strong zionist movements among conservative Christian churches who vote for senators to give billions of dollars worth of military aid to countries like Israel who essentially displace and murder Muslims. And then there is the economics issue. Some Historians contend that the original crusades were simply and excuse for Europe to loot and raid the middle east which was pimpin rich from "silk road" trade with Asia. In fact one of the crusades didn't even reach the middle east, the Catholic army just went to Constantinople and raided the trading capital of the biggest rival church, the Eastern Orthodox sect. It's focus was mostly loot and treasure. It's certainly not a stretch to say that America has a modern-day economic interest in the Middle East. Crude oil, to be blunt.

It's not completely accurate to say that this war is a modern-day crusade, but who else thinks the similarities are striking? or not.

I'm guessing you don't live here (in America).

I know many Christians who opposed the invasion of Iraq (including myself); I know many non-Christians who supported it.

I use the past tense because once we were in, the consensus was that leaving would not be easy; one should, after all, generally try to clean up one's messes.

I should also note that there are several conflicts and potential conflicts in the region: "The war" is no single thing. There is Afghanistan, there is Iraq, there is the question of Iran's nuclear ambitions, there is the question of how best to resolve the tension between Israel and some of her neighbours. While related and tied together in many complex ways, these are not a single issue.

Beyond that, those Americans who were most fervent about establishing a permanent American presence in the Middle East had bigger fish to fry. Oil was not the issue for them, at least in the sense of it being a source of wealth; they saw control of the Middle East as a vehicle for bolstering and increasing American power on a global scale: Essentially, they wanted the Arabs' "oil weapon" to become America's "oil weapon", especially for use against China.

I am glad to see the PNAC ("Project for a New American Century") crowd discredited; with luck, America will eventually be able to return to being just a Republic again, as opposed to being an Empire (I may not like Pat Buchanan, but d-mn-d if the man didn't get that issue right!).

I agree with this ^.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

So I was talking today with my friend about U.S. military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan and he made an interesting point. Every single person we know in America who is not a Christian, is against the war in Iraq/Afghanistan. And every single person we know who is pro-war is a Christian. To be fair, America is nearly %90 Christian and we do know one person who is Christian and against the war, but she is obviously a minority in the U.S.A. And then we got to talking about the strong zionist movements among conservative Christian churches who vote for senators to give billions of dollars worth of military aid to countries like Israel who essentially displace and murder Muslims. And then there is the economics issue. Some Historians contend that the original crusades were simply and excuse for Europe to loot and raid the middle east which was pimpin rich from "silk road" trade with Asia. In fact one of the crusades didn't even reach the middle east, the Catholic army just went to Constantinople and raided the trading capital of the biggest rival church, the Eastern Orthodox sect. It's focus was mostly loot and treasure. It's certainly not a stretch to say that America has a modern-day economic interest in the Middle East. Crude oil, to be blunt.

It's not completely accurate to say that this war is a modern-day crusade, but who else thinks the similarities are striking? or not.

I'm a christian. I'm against the wars and think the best thing we can do right now to benefit Afghanistan and Iraq is pull the troops out. Now you know one.

I'm also Sagittarius, a professional clown and a sexy beast.

[Soyut]

So I was talking today with my friend about U.S. military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan and he made an interesting point. Every single person we know in America who is not a Christian, is against the war in Iraq/Afghanistan. And every single person we know who is pro-war is a Christian. To be fair, America is nearly %90 Christian and we do know one person who is Christian and against the war, but she is obviously a minority in the U.S.A. And then we got to talking about the strong zionist movements among conservative Christian churches who vote for senators to give billions of dollars worth of military aid to countries like Israel who essentially displace and murder Muslims. And then there is the economics issue. Some Historians contend that the original crusades were simply and excuse for Europe to loot and raid the middle east which was pimpin rich from "silk road" trade with Asia. In fact one of the crusades didn't even reach the middle east, the Catholic army just went to Constantinople and raided the trading capital of the biggest rival church, the Eastern Orthodox sect. It's focus was mostly loot and treasure. It's certainly not a stretch to say that America has a modern-day economic interest in the Middle East. Crude oil, to be blunt.

It's not completely accurate to say that this war is a modern-day crusade, but who else thinks the similarities are striking? or not.

I'm guessing you don't live here (in America).

I know many Christians who opposed the invasion of Iraq (including myself); I know many non-Christians who supported it.

I use the past tense because once we were in, the consensus was that leaving would not be easy; one should, after all, generally try to clean up one's messes.

I should also note that there are several conflicts and potential conflicts in the region: "The war" is no single thing. There is Afghanistan, there is Iraq, there is the question of Iran's nuclear ambitions, there is the question of how best to resolve the tension between Israel and some of her neighbours. While related and tied together in many complex ways, these are not a single issue.

Beyond that, those Americans who were most fervent about establishing a permanent American presence in the Middle East had bigger fish to fry. Oil was not the issue for them, at least in the sense of it being a source of wealth; they saw control of the Middle East as a vehicle for bolstering and increasing American power on a global scale: Essentially, they wanted the Arabs' "oil weapon" to become America's "oil weapon", especially for use against China.

I am glad to see the PNAC ("Project for a New American Century") crowd discredited; with luck, America will eventually be able to return to being just a Republic again, as opposed to being an Empire (I may not like Pat Buchanan, but d-mn-d if the man didn't get that issue right!).

Yeah that makes sense. I lived in America all my life up until 3 months ago by the way. I never meant to say that my comparison is the absolute truth. Merely fodder for conversation. Sort of like, who is a better captain, kirk or pecard? The answer is not as fun or important as the the discussion.

[Soyut]

So I was talking today with my friend about U.S. military involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan and he made an interesting point. Every single person we know in America who is not a Christian, is against the war in Iraq/Afghanistan. And every single person we know who is pro-war is a Christian. To be fair, America is nearly %90 Christian and we do know one person who is Christian and against the war, but she is obviously a minority in the U.S.A. And then we got to talking about the strong zionist movements among conservative Christian churches who vote for senators to give billions of dollars worth of military aid to countries like Israel who essentially displace and murder Muslims. And then there is the economics issue. Some Historians contend that the original crusades were simply and excuse for Europe to loot and raid the middle east which was pimpin rich from "silk road" trade with Asia. In fact one of the crusades didn't even reach the middle east, the Catholic army just went to Constantinople and raided the trading capital of the biggest rival church, the Eastern Orthodox sect. It's focus was mostly loot and treasure. It's certainly not a stretch to say that America has a modern-day economic interest in the Middle East. Crude oil, to be blunt.

It's not completely accurate to say that this war is a modern-day crusade, but who else thinks the similarities are striking? or not.

I'm a christian. I'm against the wars and think the best thing we can do right now to benefit Afghanistan and Iraq is pull the troops out. Now you know one.

I'm also Sagittarius, a professional clown and a sexy beast.

Everybody knows you LG, the sexiest clown ever. mud and tacos for all!

[Neighoff]

im a combat engineer in kabul afghanistan, and i say kill them all, burn this country to the ground and lets leave

[The Parkus Empire]

im a combat engineer in kabul afghanistan, and i say kill them all, burn this country to the ground and lets leave

Christ, I hope I'm never stationed with you.

[Soniere]

im a combat engineer in kabul afghanistan, and i say kill them all, burn this country to the ground and lets leave

Wouldn't burning the place to the ground before leaving kill "us" too? I mean, if there's going to be a massive fire, wouldn't it be a better idea to leave first, and then light the "match"? Just wondering...

[Neighoff]

im a combat engineer in kabul afghanistan, and i say kill them all, burn this country to the ground and lets leave

Christ, I hope I'm never stationed with you.

I dont have time to fuck around with pogs, so dont worry

[Chrobalta]

Crusade? No. Catastrofuck? Yes.

[The Parkus Empire]

I dont have time to fuck around with pogs, so dont worry

Ah, but I'm transferring to infantry. MOS 0311.