Baltimore to remove Confederate Monuments

[Conserative Morality]

It's just stirring an unnecessary ruckus , history is history whether you like it or not.

And traitorous slaver scumbags are traitorous slaver scumbags whether you like it or not. And I don't believe in the government or governments beholden to the Union honoring traitorous slaver scumbags.

[Neonistan]

well I could cut and paste your comment on all of America as well since they were traitors to the Crown were they not English citizens rebelling against a government the reason you call the people of the CSA traitor is they lost so what if the American rebels lost during the revolution would they not be traitors as well? this logic is stupid same can be said for South Vietnam, South Korea, South Sudan, and many other nations who fought and won or fought and lost all can be called traitors if your gonna call one loser a traitor you might as well call them all traitors same goes for all the winners as well

I don't remember where or when I asked the UK to 'honor' the American Revolution. And furthermore, all traitors aren't equal. "I'm not represented so I'm gonna rebel" /=/ "I'm over-represented but I'm gonna rebel because there's a chance that I won't be able to pass on muh slaves to my great-grandchildren"

yeah you would say that since by your logic American rebels/traitors in 1770's won= not traitors but csa/southern rebels lost= traitors. stop beating around the bush most nations today rebelled against the people who ruled over them so all can be defined as traitors. just tell the truth losers= traitors winners = not traitors but let me correct you that's only your opinion and its not helping you learn at all just like all those who want to tear down statues they wont ever learn

[Conserative Morality]

yeah you would say that since by your logic American rebels/traitors in 1770's won= not traitors but csa/southern rebels lost= traitors. stop beating around the bush most nations today rebelled against the people who ruled over them so all can be defined as traitors. just tell the truth losers= traitors winners = not traitors but let me correct you that's only your opinion and its not helping you learn at all just like all those who want to tear down statues they wont ever learn

Where the fuck did I say any of that?

Did you even read my post?

I guess that would be too much effort.

[Ifreann]

As I said in the other umpteen iterations of this thread, they're cheap Jim Crow era propaganda pieces that should have been destroyed years ago. Good riddance.

Pretty much this. I can live with them being in a museum to teach future generations about how the south created and promulgated the Lost Cause myth and what have you, but beyond that I would say they're of little worth beyond recycling their materials.

---

I am extremely opposed to this idea. All historical artefacts need to be preserved and kept so that future generations can learn from them. Even if the artifices were the most morally reprehensible things in the world there is still something future people could learn them. In fact, this is escpecially important with artifacts celebrating evil because they remind us not to repeat the same mistakes again.

It's probably easier to preserve artifacts in a museum

There doesn't tend to be much wind, rain, or pigeon shit in museums. Excepting the Museum Of Weather And Shit, of course.

[Redsection]

It's just stirring an unnecessary ruckus , history is history whether you like it or not.

And traitorous slaver scumbags are traitorous slaver scumbags whether you like it or not. And I don't believe in the government or governments beholden to the Union honoring traitorous slaver scumbags.

I could care less about a traitors opinion on other traitors , as I said we are a nation that got pissy over the crown raising taxes , which was fairly done due to the British aiding us in the French Indian war. It's all around hypocrisy.

[Neonistan]

yeah you would say that since by your logic American rebels/traitors in 1770's won= not traitors but csa/southern rebels lost= traitors. stop beating around the bush most nations today rebelled against the people who ruled over them so all can be defined as traitors. just tell the truth losers= traitors winners = not traitors but let me correct you that's only your opinion and its not helping you learn at all just like all those who want to tear down statues they wont ever learn

Where the fuck did I say any of that?

Did you even read my post?

I guess that would be too much effort.

yeah you did say that not word for word you said the usa should not have any monument to the ebil traitors. which means in your eyes who ever loses is a traitor.

[Neonistan]

And traitorous slaver scumbags are traitorous slaver scumbags whether you like it or not. And I don't believe in the government or governments beholden to the Union honoring traitorous slaver scumbags.

I could care less about a traitors opinion on other traitors , as I said we are a nation that got pissy over the crown raising taxes , which was fairly done due to the British aiding us in the French Indian war. It's all around hypocrisy.

Thank you someone who finally is smart enough to get it

[Kannap]

It's just stirring an unnecessary ruckus , history is history whether you like it or not.

History can find it's place in a museum.

[Conserative Morality]

I could care less about a traitors opinion on other traitors , as I said we are a nation that got pissy over the crown raising taxes , which was fairly done due to the British aiding us in the French Indian war. It's all around hypocrisy.

Yes, all rebellions are the same. Wow. You really showed me. Thank you for enlightening me, sir.

Let me clear a few things up for you:

The CSA was a bunch of traitors

A government has no obligation to honor those who betrayed them

A nation has no obligation to honor those who betrayed them

Thus, we (America) have no obligation to honor them. In fact, for us to honor them would be rather retarded.

Furthermore, the CSA was a bunch of traitors who founded their treason on the right to own other human beings as property because of the color of their skin.

Thus, not only do they not deserve to be honored, but quite frankly, all they deserve is to be despised for the rest of eternity for being such shit-swilling scuzzbuckets.

[Redsection]

I could care less about a traitors opinion on other traitors , as I said we are a nation that got pissy over the crown raising taxes , which was fairly done due to the British aiding us in the French Indian war. It's all around hypocrisy.

Thank you someone who finally is smart enough to get it

It's time for the nonsense to stop , those pressing for the destruction of history simply seek to divide the nation even further.

[Conserative Morality]

yeah you did say that not word for word you said the usa should not have any monument to the ebil traitors. which means in your eyes who ever loses is a traitor.

I'll never understand how some people can cross such leaps of logic without any point to bridge them.

[Thermodolia]

I'm also conflicted. This does give white supremacists and alt righters some justification for believing in white oppression. This could result in them looking oppressed if they play the right cards and could increase their numbers, backfiring exponentially.

Not if you use the argument that the CSA is full of traitors and it's anti-American to support and have statues of them.

[Valyrian Freeholds]

Where the fuck did I say any of that?

Did you even read my post?

I guess that would be too much effort.

yeah you did say that not word for word you said the usa should not have any monument to the ebil traitors. which means in your eyes who ever loses is a traitor.

they were rebelling so they could keep people as property that was the point. They're not evil for rebelling, they're evil for rebelling for that reason. The Revolutionaries and the British Empire were both on the same page when it came to slavery, both practised it, but at least the Revolutionaries were fighting for some form of democracy against arbitrary autocracy. The Confederates rebelled against a government that wanted them to stop treating a certain race as property.

[Thermodolia]

At least put them in a museum for historical purposes - although I find it confusing that because this event happened, the City instantly removed them from their historic sites. And also, the Confederates fought for the South, not for slavery.

And the south as a nation doesn't exist. So there is no need for statues of traitors

[Redsection]

I could care less about a traitors opinion on other traitors , as I said we are a nation that got pissy over the crown raising taxes , which was fairly done due to the British aiding us in the French Indian war. It's all around hypocrisy.

Yes, all rebellions are the same. Wow. You really showed me. Thank you for enlightening me, sir.

Let me clear a few things up for you:

The CSA was a bunch of traitors

A government has no obligation to honor those who betrayed them

A nation has no obligation to honor those who betrayed them

Thus, we (America) have no obligation to honor them. In fact, for us to honor them would be rather retarded.

Furthermore, the CSA was a bunch of traitors who founded their treason on the right to own other human beings as property because of the color of their skin.

Thus, not only do they not deserve to be honored, but quite frankly, all they deserve is to be despised for the rest of eternity for being such shit-swilling scuzzbuckets.

And so were the patriots , I can only Imagine how the American loyalists felt about their brothers turning against them. You also ignore the fact that slavery is a concept based upon conquest it's not like the southerners are the only ones who took slaves , need I also remind you quite a few Africans were sold by their own people to European traders and slavers which in turn sold these slaves to the American states. Let's also discuss the black slave owners who were just as ruthless as any other slaver

[Kannap]

At least put them in a museum for historical purposes - although I find it confusing that because this event happened, the City instantly removed them from their historic sites. And also, the Confederates fought for the South, not for slavery.

It's almost as if the South isn't a nation and that the only United States is the United States and therefore people who fought to tear down the United States should not be idolized.

[San Lumen]

Sound to me like the politicians in Baltimore are jealous of the press time given to those in Charlottesville and have decided to stir the pot.

Im sorry what?

[Thermodolia]

Yes, all rebellions are the same. Wow. You really showed me. Thank you for enlightening me, sir.

Let me clear a few things up for you:

The CSA was a bunch of traitors

A government has no obligation to honor those who betrayed them

A nation has no obligation to honor those who betrayed them

Thus, we (America) have no obligation to honor them. In fact, for us to honor them would be rather retarded.

Furthermore, the CSA was a bunch of traitors who founded their treason on the right to own other human beings as property because of the color of their skin.

Thus, not only do they not deserve to be honored, but quite frankly, all they deserve is to be despised for the rest of eternity for being such shit-swilling scuzzbuckets.

And so were the patriots , I can only Imagine how the American loyalists felt about their brothers turning against them. You also ignore the fact that slavery is a concept based upon conquest it's not like the southerners are the only ones who took slaves , need I also remind you quite a few Africans were sold by their own people to European traders and slavers which in turn sold these slaves to the American states. Let's also discuss the black slave owners who were just as ruthless as any other slaver

They weren't patriots they where traitors. Traitors to their nation, traitors to their government

[Conserative Morality]

And so were the patriots , I can only Imagine how the American loyalists felt about their brothers turning against them. You also ignore the fact that slavery is a concept based upon conquest it's not like the southerners are the only ones who took slaves , need I also remind you quite a few Africans were sold by their own people to European traders and slavers which in turn sold these slaves to the American states. Let's also discuss the black slave owners who were just as ruthless as any other slaver

What the fuck does any of that have to do with the CSA and the Civil War?

There is no deflection here. The CSA was filled with scumbag traitors who betrayed their country and did so for the scummiest of reasons. "B-b-b-but other people had the same institutions!" isn't an excuse for them, and this kind of pathetic whataboutism is exactly why CSA apologists should get no platform in this country, passive or active. This is exactly why the statues that were erected after Reconstruction must be removed to storage, why we should not tolerate pissants preaching Southern 'heritage' as the sole province of four years of treason and one of the most disgusting sins mankind has ever known.

[Kannap]

Sound to me like the politicians in Baltimore are jealous of the press time given to those in Charlottesville and have decided to stir the pot.

Im sorry what?

You heard the absurd claim the first time, don't make him repeat it.

[New Decandsor]

Baltimore has now become the next municipality to announce they are going to remove confederate monuments

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/in ... a14d4e2627

Some on the city council have called for the monuments to not only be removed but be destroyed.

Im very conflicted about this. On the one hand these were people who fought against the country and fought a rebellion but it is a part of history and history should never be forgotten.
But on the other they are memorializing people who fought against what the country stands for. People like Justice Roger Taney whom one of the monuments in Baltimore is of authored the infamous Dred Scott decision. A bust or statue of him should not be destroyed as it was the Dred Scott decision that helped lead to the civil war.

If places want to remove them they should be put in museums but certainly not destroyed.

What's your thoughts NSG on this contentious issue?

Jesus Christ. It's been a hundred and fifty years and people still can't get over this? They definitely shouldn't be destroyed, if they wish to take them down, they should be placed in a museum. Continuously seeing people wanting to take down these monuments all the time just tells me that people can't get over it and move forward.

[Vassenor]

At least put them in a museum for historical purposes - although I find it confusing that because this event happened, the City instantly removed them from their historic sites. And also, the Confederates fought for the South, not for slavery.

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

[...]

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science.

[Redsection]

And so were the patriots , I can only Imagine how the American loyalists felt about their brothers turning against them. You also ignore the fact that slavery is a concept based upon conquest it's not like the southerners are the only ones who took slaves , need I also remind you quite a few Africans were sold by their own people to European traders and slavers which in turn sold these slaves to the American states. Let's also discuss the black slave owners who were just as ruthless as any other slaver

What the fuck does any of that have to do with the CSA and the Civil War?

There is no deflection here. The CSA was filled with scumbag traitors who betrayed their country and did so for the scummiest of reasons. "B-b-b-but other people had the same institutions!" isn't an excuse for them, and this kind of pathetic whataboutism is exactly why CSA apologists should get no platform in this country, passive or active. This is exactly why the statues that were erected after Reconstruction must be removed to storage, why we should not tolerate pissants preaching Southern 'heritage' as the sole province of four years of treason and one of the most disgusting sins mankind has ever known.

All traitors whether they win are lose are equal in the fact that they betrayed their former governance , it's just the simple truth. The reason for rebellion does not matter , they are still traitors. Until we as Americans realize we are a nation founded on treachery and that we exist solely due to the French aid and British being preoccupied with more important colonies then we cannot move forward. History whether you like it or not is always going to be preserved in one way or another. Sputtering hypocrisy is no way to go about anything.

[Polar Svalbard]

If the community votes to remove them then so be it, but they should at the very least be preserved.

[USS Monitor]

I guess they woke up and noticed they're in a Union state.