The God in Communism: Karl Marx religious?

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

However, did that motivate him to write about Communism? That is the question.

I mean, he prolly had a religous education, yeah? Not saying he wrote this shit just to get back at god, but It'd make sense he'd have picked up certain morals, and those morals were taking to their logical extreme

how is that non sense many people get angry at god and then spend their whole lives trying to "disillusion" the masses of gods existence

[Shrodashi]

The basic point of "religion is the opiate of the masses" is not "religion is bad, like opium", it is "religion is a painkiller, like opium". The fact that it's a painkiller likely convinced Marx that it was bad, but that isn't what he was talking about in the quote. It was a metaphor, not a condemnation.

It's a very similar sentiment to "there's no atheists in a foxhole". In a hopeless and oppressive situation, people turn to religion. This serves to give them the hope of paradise after death or a superior life post-reincarnation or whatever, which distracts from the pain of real life just like opium distracts from the pain of an injury. With such a hope of a better life in another world, they're less likely to rise up against the authorities to seek a better life in this world.

I highly doubt Marx would care much about destroying God since I doubt Marx thought God existed in the first place.

[Neanderthaland]

I mean, he prolly had a religous education, yeah? Not saying he wrote this shit just to get back at god, but It'd make sense he'd have picked up certain morals, and those morals were taking to their logical extreme

how is that non sense many people get angry at god and then spend their whole lives trying to "disillusion" the masses of gods existence

Because it doesn't happen.

If you are angry at God, you believe in God, and are not an atheist.

[Hakons]

Christians don't condemn the wealthy like socialists do. The wealthy have an obligation to help the poor, but simply being wealthy doesn't make you evil. Christianity condemns sins, like greed, not sinners, like the wealthy.

"it is easier for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle than to get in heaven"

Yes, because a rich man often loves his wealth and not God. We cannot serve two masters, money and God, so we must choose God.

After that statement Christ is asked how anyone can be saved. He replies that no one can be saved by themselves, but only through God. Just as the rich man cannot enter Heaven on his own wealth, the poor man cannot enter Heaven by himself. The wealthy man that opened the discussion with Jesus begin with saying that he followed the Law and was morale. With this response, Jesus demonstrates that we are not saved by our moral purity or by our wealth and status, but only through God's grace.

Once again, Christianity doesn't condemn people or classes. All people and all classes need the saving grace of Christ. Wealth must be used in good manner and not be hoarded, but simply being wealthy doesn't condemn one to Hell.

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

The basic point of "religion is the opiate of the masses" is not "religion is bad, like opium", it is "religion is a painkiller, like opium". The fact that it's a painkiller likely convinced Marx that it was bad, but that isn't what he was talking about in the quote. It was a metaphor, not a condemnation.

It's a very similar sentiment to "there's no atheists in a foxhole". In a hopeless and oppressive situation, people turn to religion. This serves to give them the hope of paradise after death or a superior life post-reincarnation or whatever, which distracts from the pain of real life just like opium distracts from the pain of an injury. With such a hope of a better life in another world, they're less likely to rise up against the authorities to seek a better life in this world.

I highly doubt Marx would care much about destroying God since I doubt Marx thought God existed in the first place.

I understand the famous quote he made ...I didn't need a history lesson.
I'm just trying to find his reasoning behind dropping his faith and trying to destroy god. I claim he tried to destroy god because he claims in his writings "it is irrational to believe in god and any man that still believes in god cannot be reasoned with"

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

"it is easier for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle than to get in heaven"

Yes, because a rich man often loves his wealth and not God. We cannot serve two masters, money and God, so we must choose God.

After that statement Christ is asked how anyone can be saved. He replies that no one can be saved by themselves, but only through God. Just as the rich man cannot enter Heaven on his own wealth, the poor man cannot enter Heaven by himself. The wealthy man that opened the discussion with Jesus begin with saying that he followed the Law and was morale. With this response, Jesus demonstrates that we are not saved by our moral purity or by our wealth and status, but only through God's grace.

Once again, Christianity doesn't condemn people or classes. All people and all classes need the saving grace of Christ. Wealth must be used in good manner and not be hoarded, but simply being wealthy doesn't condemn one to Hell.

nor does it in the communist nations. They are only condemned if they were evil in which they spent their money foolishly

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

how is that non sense many people get angry at god and then spend their whole lives trying to "disillusion" the masses of gods existence

Because it doesn't happen.

If you are angry at God, you believe in God, and are not an atheist.

He did believe at one point or his morals wouldn't ally so closely to Christianity

[Hakons]

Yes, because a rich man often loves his wealth and not God. We cannot serve two masters, money and God, so we must choose God.

After that statement Christ is asked how anyone can be saved. He replies that no one can be saved by themselves, but only through God. Just as the rich man cannot enter Heaven on his own wealth, the poor man cannot enter Heaven by himself. The wealthy man that opened the discussion with Jesus begin with saying that he followed the Law and was morale. With this response, Jesus demonstrates that we are not saved by our moral purity or by our wealth and status, but only through God's grace.

Once again, Christianity doesn't condemn people or classes. All people and all classes need the saving grace of Christ. Wealth must be used in good manner and not be hoarded, but simply being wealthy doesn't condemn one to Hell.

nor does it in the communist nations. They are only condemned if they were evil in which they spent their money foolishly

That is debatable. The kulaks, as a class, were unilaterally condemned just for being successful farmers.

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

nor does it in the communist nations. They are only condemned if they were evil in which they spent their money foolishly

That is debatable. The kulaks, as a class, were unilaterally condemned just for being successful farmers.

well obviously the communist ideas were never fully followed....don't get me started.

[Hakons]

Because it doesn't happen.

If you are angry at God, you believe in God, and are not an atheist.

He did believe at one point or his morals wouldn't ally so closely to Christianity

Are you asking because you are Christian, or do you just want to understand? If you want a discussion about Marx and Christianity, you can ask on the Christian Discussion Thread.

[Shrodashi]

The basic point of "religion is the opiate of the masses" is not "religion is bad, like opium", it is "religion is a painkiller, like opium". The fact that it's a painkiller likely convinced Marx that it was bad, but that isn't what he was talking about in the quote. It was a metaphor, not a condemnation.

It's a very similar sentiment to "there's no atheists in a foxhole". In a hopeless and oppressive situation, people turn to religion. This serves to give them the hope of paradise after death or a superior life post-reincarnation or whatever, which distracts from the pain of real life just like opium distracts from the pain of an injury. With such a hope of a better life in another world, they're less likely to rise up against the authorities to seek a better life in this world.

I highly doubt Marx would care much about destroying God since I doubt Marx thought God existed in the first place.

I understand the famous quote he made ...I didn't need a history lesson.
I'm just trying to find his reasoning behind dropping his faith and trying to destroy god. I claim he tried to destroy god because he claims in his writings "it is irrational to believe in god and any man that still believes in god cannot be reasoned with"

He likely dropped religion, if he was ever religious rather than just influenced by a religiously-influenced society, because it wasn't materialist and he himself was a hardcore advocate of (dialectical) materialism.

For the destroying God part: he opposed religion because he saw it as distracting from attempts to launch a communist revolution. God wasn't likely to be the concern, since he didn't believe in God at that point if he ever had, it would've been the institutions and ideology of religion that were the target of his antipathy for their counterrevolutionary nature. I imagine he would have enjoyed Denis Diderot's quote; "Let us strangle the last king with the guts of the last priest."

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

He did believe at one point or his morals wouldn't ally so closely to Christianity

Are you asking because you are Christian, or do you just want to understand? If you want a discussion about Marx and Christianity, you can ask on the Christian Discussion Thread.

Yep I'm Christian and also I want to understand Marx's thought process

[Genivaria]

Are you asking because you are Christian, or do you just want to understand? If you want a discussion about Marx and Christianity, you can ask on the Christian Discussion Thread.

Yep I'm Christian and also I want to understand Marx's thought process

His thought process was that workers at the time (this is before even modern American labor reforms were in place) were being horribly mistreated, under-paid, over-worked, and arrested whenever they tried to exercise their right to unionize.

Many of Marx's criticisms of the suffering of the workers were entirely valid, it was his solutions that were flawed.

[The of Japan]

OOC:
Religious or not, his teachings were disastrous for Europe and the world.

IC:
Having been a communist nation as recently as 1945, we can say we did not enjoy it one bit. Following our liberation by Det hellige nordiske rike, all references to communism and the USSR were banned. So whether K. M. believed in any god is a moot point because it is illegal to say or write his name in modern Belarus and Ukraine.

Not to Russia....

I think somebody forgot about the 80s and 90s

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

I understand the famous quote he made ...I didn't need a history lesson.
I'm just trying to find his reasoning behind dropping his faith and trying to destroy god. I claim he tried to destroy god because he claims in his writings "it is irrational to believe in god and any man that still believes in god cannot be reasoned with"

He likely dropped religion, if he was ever religious rather than just influenced by a religiously-influenced society, because it wasn't materialist and he himself was a hardcore advocate of (dialectical) materialism.

For the destroying God part: he opposed religion because he saw it as distracting from attempts to launch a communist revolution. God wasn't likely to be the concern, since he didn't believe in God at that point if he ever had, it would've been the institutions and ideology of religion that were the target of his antipathy for their counterrevolutionary nature. I imagine he would have enjoyed Denis Diderot's quote; "Let us strangle the last king with the guts of the last priest."

ive never heard that quote.....

[Hakons]

Are you asking because you are Christian, or do you just want to understand? If you want a discussion about Marx and Christianity, you can ask on the Christian Discussion Thread.

Yep I'm Christian and also I want to understand Marx's thought process

Constantinopolis is a communist. You could tg them or pop a question on the CDT.

[Genivaria]

He likely dropped religion, if he was ever religious rather than just influenced by a religiously-influenced society, because it wasn't materialist and he himself was a hardcore advocate of (dialectical) materialism.

For the destroying God part: he opposed religion because he saw it as distracting from attempts to launch a communist revolution. God wasn't likely to be the concern, since he didn't believe in God at that point if he ever had, it would've been the institutions and ideology of religion that were the target of his antipathy for their counterrevolutionary nature. I imagine he would have enjoyed Denis Diderot's quote; "Let us strangle the last king with the guts of the last priest."

ive never heard that quote.....

To put it another way Marx thought that organized religion was to the workers as Breads and Circuses were to the Roman people, a distraction from their problems so they can't fix them.

[Tyskylvania]

Marx may have been religious once in his life, but I see no reason to believe he was religious at the time of his works.
From what I interpret in his famous quote and after reading through previous posts in this thread, religion is like a painkiller. A false escape in which one uses to escape from the harshness of reality.
It is, in my opinion, contradictory with Communism and the end goal of Marxism. And, I am personally biased against religion and its variations of ideologies, and I would only tolerate Atheist or secular Communism.

[Hakons]

Marx may have been religious once in his life, but I see no reason to believe he was religious at the time of his works.
From what I interpret in his famous quote and after reading through previous posts in this thread, religion is like a painkiller. A false escape in which one uses to escape from the harshness of reality.
It is, in my opinion, contradictory with Communism and the end goal of Marxism. And, I am personally biased against religion and its variations of ideologies, and I would only tolerate Atheist or secular Communism.

This is why us religious folk mainly stay away from communism, because most communists would love to destroy the Church and scatter the congregation.

[Neanderthaland]

Because it doesn't happen.

If you are angry at God, you believe in God, and are not an atheist.

He did believe at one point or his morals wouldn't ally so closely to Christianity

He. Was. JEWISH. I don't know if he ever believed in a God or not, but if he had, it wouldn't have been the Christian one.

As for your claim that his "morals closely ally Christianity:" I just systematically demolished that argument.

At this point you are being willfully ignorant.

[Dorran]

Because it doesn't happen.

If you are angry at God, you believe in God, and are not an atheist.

He did believe at one point or his morals wouldn't ally so closely to Christianity

...yes. His belief that the exploitation of workers by those who controlled the wealth is exclusive to Christians. My favorite archbishop, Gandhi, expressed similar morals.

[Summertimequestionswine]

I too often find myself confused by all this communism and christianity.

[Ayanka]

(Image)

Now this might sound like complete heresy but I personally think that Marx was extremely religious at one point and something happened to him which cause him to hate god (maybe a family death?) and when he published his manifesto he made sure some of it was dedicated to destroying god. I'm not saying his whole purpose of the manifesto was to destroy god....I'm just saying that he knew his works would be respected so why not push a few hidden agendas under it? why else would Marx's works look so similar to Christianity? ....it just all adds up.

What do you guys think?

Hold on a moment. There's a lot of wrong stuff going on in this thread.

First of all, you're assuming, for some reason, that Marx's philosophical views are influenced by the bible and by christianism. This is highly unlikely, since Marx was born and raised in a mainly secular family. This is also important, because Marx was homeschooled by his father till the age of twelve. His father, Heinrich Marx, was a largely non-religious man who converted from Judaism to Lutheranism to avoid persecution and to be able to occupy a legal position as a lawyer, thing that was illegal for religious jews under the laws of the Kingdom of Prussia. After Marx's homeschooling period ended, he was sent to Trier High School. I think it's also unlikely that marx got any religious ideas there, becuase not only it wasn't a religious school, but also it was known to use liberal humanists as teachers. Later, when he got into University at Bonn, Marx became a Hegelian Idealist.

Okay, first stop. As you maybe have seen till here, christianism didn't have any strong influence upon Marx's education during his childhood, adolescence or even when he got into University. The only thing necessary to see this was to take a look at Marx's biography.

The next question that I see you're asking yourself is where did Marx get his atheist ideas. And no, it wasn't because "something happened to him which cause him to hate god (maybe a family death?) and when he published his manifesto he made sure some of it was dedicated to destroying god." There's a lot of wrong stuff going on with this quote particularly, because you're making a lot of false assumptions about Karl Marx's life and his philosophical ideas.
First, you're implying that Marx was, in the past, a highly religious man, which we have already seen before it's probably not true. Second, you're making the assumption that Marx, wanted to "destroy God", when the thruth is that he, as an atheist, just didn't believe in him (a way of thinking that, unfortunately, is still present amongst some religious people). And third, you're implying that Marx's atheist ideas were born out of an event that marked his life, and not out of an evolution of his philosopical ideas, which were influenced by other philosophers. This last point is the most important one, because it's the reason why Marx became an atheist.

Marx became an atheists through the influence of a philosopher called Ludwig Feuerbach. Before that, he was a hegelian leftist. This philosopher started to critisize religion and moving towards maretialism in 1836, when Marx was 18 years old, and became completely imposed in his way of thinking in 1841, after writing The Essence of Christianity. Feuerbach ideas had a strong influence amongst hegelian leftists. This happened long before Marx had the Manifesto of the Communist Party in his mind. Engels wrote about this once in one of his books:

One must himself have experienced the liberating effect of this book to get an idea of it. Enthusiasm was general; we all became at once Feuerbachians.

Feuerbach's ideas stayed with Marx for the rest of his life. In fact, his main philosophical science, dialectical materialism, was mainly a mix between Hegel's dialectics and Feuerbach's materialism, as the name says.

Are you asking because you are Christian, or do you just want to understand? If you want a discussion about Marx and Christianity, you can ask on the Christian Discussion Thread.

Yep I'm Christian and also I want to understand Marx's thought process

If you want to understand Marx's way of thinking I recommend you to read first about his life. Vladimir Lenin wrote a biography about him which I recommend, you can find it here. Next, the best way of understanding how a philosopher thinks is by reading his books. If you're interested in what Marx has to say about religion, you have a list of his works about the subject here. But seriously, I don't recommend you to make assumptions like that without any kind of basis. That's usually a bad idea.

I guess that's all what I have to say for now. In case you need something more, just ask me.

[Gim]

I too often find myself confused by all this communism and christianity.

They don't really match, do they?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Yes, because a rich man often loves his wealth and not God. We cannot serve two masters, money and God, so we must choose God.

After that statement Christ is asked how anyone can be saved. He replies that no one can be saved by themselves, but only through God. Just as the rich man cannot enter Heaven on his own wealth, the poor man cannot enter Heaven by himself. The wealthy man that opened the discussion with Jesus begin with saying that he followed the Law and was morale. With this response, Jesus demonstrates that we are not saved by our moral purity or by our wealth and status, but only through God's grace.

Once again, Christianity doesn't condemn people or classes. All people and all classes need the saving grace of Christ. Wealth must be used in good manner and not be hoarded, but simply being wealthy doesn't condemn one to Hell.

nor does it in the communist nations. They are only condemned if they were evil in which they spent their money foolishly

And in the opinion of those communists, they are evil and they spend their money foolishly.