Charlottesville: Where Do We Go From Here?

[The New Sea Territory]

The more attention society and media give these white supremacists, the more power they have.

What is the point of counter-protesting their rally? There was no way they were going to change their racist beliefs, I see no point.

You don't understand...these people don't rally in small towns to try to convince people of their opinion. It's an excuse for violence. That;s why they showed up with shields. That's why the Traditionalist Workers Party, which was at this protest, has been showing up to protests with shields for at least a year now. Where they can open carry, they can. It's about violence and intimidation.

Counter-protesters show up to engage Nazis.

Racism is reprehensible but let's be honest here, had nobody given these losers attention in the first place, none of this would have happened.

Not how that works, really. Nazis have been rallying like this for years. You can't just ignore five hundred Nazis with torches.

[Greed and Death]

Reports are filtering in that the driver of the car is an anti Trumper.

[The New Sea Territory]

Reports are filtering in that the driver of the car is an anti Trumper.

Reports from where? Breitbart?

[Hakons]

It's hard to explain, but I'll do my best.

You're right in pointing out that sparing the South has had negative effects. But our nation was constructed under the principle that all of our land would be turned into states with equal shares in the future of the nation. To have had troops from the rest of the nation dissolve the South, to destroy it, to turn it into an occupied area or annex the Southern states to their neighbors, would have violated the principles that our states were created under. It would have created untold resentment.

Who knows? It might have worked. But it probably wouldn't have. Occupations have a tendency to cause resistance, and it could well have caused the guerrilla war that Lee was trying to avoid when he surrendered his army in 1865.

Well clearly they couldn't be annexed, New Mexico could not extend to the Atlantic. But it could be occupied.

And frankly, you put too much importance on what you were "founded on", it's been 200 years. The South needed to be under supervision, and it should have been. What was relevant in 1776 isn't in 1865, nor in 2017. Your Constitution could have been amended, and it should have been. Those States had violated the contract that you had all signed by committing treason.

And it could have caused resistance all it wanted. And the Union would have torched the entire South. Hard to resist from the ashes of your home, farmland, forest, etc.

Short-term pain for long-term gain.

No, that would be terrible. We had just gone through five brutal years of shooting our brothers to bits. The South was already severely ravaged by the war. I know in Europe people like to put the boot to the neck, but we were not going to ravage the ENTIRE SOUTH. The United States entered the war with the intent of making the Union whole again. This is why I stressed earlier that the southerners were Americans. They were our countrymen, not some conquered people to be put to the sword. We weren't going to grind them to dust, like the English did to the Irish. That is antithetical to America. The 300,000 U.S. soldiers that died in the Civil War were not fighting to destroy the south, and in the process destroy what America stands for. They were fighting to restore the Union. A prolonged campaign to destroy the south would have inflamed the public against the Republican Party. The Democrats got 45% of the vote in 1864. If the Republican Party went the radical route, more northerners would have been Democrats as they saw Lincoln's party descend into pseudo-imeperialism. As we saw with President Johnson, the Democrats would have been softer on the south than the Republicans. We might have even skipped most of reconstruction if the Democrats won in 1868. Heck, if Grant had still won with a radical party, he would have lost by 1872 when scandals in his administration began to pile up.

tl;dr A radical Republican party with a campaign to grind down the South would have created a backlash that threw them out of power.

[Lord of The Rings]

No, they didn't, but that's fine. Conflicts such as these only erupt because people are freely allowed to spit out their racist slurs. Ending that will end much of the problem. Sure there will still be racists out there, they will always be there no matter what one can do, but at least they won't cause any trouble with it.

Of course, that usually solves the problem. I have often found sweeping things under the rug solves things. Thats why Europe is of course always so peaceful and many countries in the Middle East have no ethnic tensions.

Europe isn't a country, and the Middle-East is a whole different story. At least come up with something decent or just save yourself the trouble.

True. However it does reduce the amount of open confrontations like we saw here, and saving one life is worth it in my book. On top of that there's my second solution, education, which can do a lot of good whether it is out in the open or underground.

Now there is no way racist will ever disappear, there will always be some around and during certain times there will be more than during other times. yet it is still important to combat it by whatever means needed. Allowing racists to be so open about it only causes more hatred amongst people, something that should and can be avoided.

Better ban swimming pools and cars tbh

Your comment is exactly the reason why education is the next step.

[Litorea]

Reports are filtering in that the driver of the car is an anti Trumper.

If this is from Alex Jones harping on about it being a false flag, stop right there.

[Ohioan Territory]

The more attention society and media give these white supremacists, the more power they have.

What is the point of counter-protesting their rally? There was no way they were going to change their racist beliefs, I see no point.

You don't understand...these people don't rally in small towns to try to convince people of their opinion. It's an excuse for violence.

Counter-protesters show up to engage Nazis.

Racism is reprehensible but let's be honest here, had nobody given these losers attention in the first place, none of this would have happened.

Not how that works, really. Nazis have been rallying like this for years. You can't just ignore five hundred Nazis with torches.

My point exactly, they're looking for violence. Stay away from them and pay them no mind and they have less opportunity to be violent and get media exposure.

And yeah... you can just ignore them. Sure, they've been rallying for years, so what? What are they accomplishing? More idiots joining their ranks? Who cares. If they're not doing physical damage to property or people, they should be ignored. As I've said, more interaction with them just gives them more opportunity to be violent and get the media exposure they want.

[Ohioan Territory]

Reports are filtering in that the driver of the car is an anti Trumper.

Reports from where? Breitbart?

I don't think the political beliefs of the driver should matter.

White supremacist. Terrorist. Killer. Disgusting, reprehensible human being. End of.

[Bombadil]

I listen to a podcast called RadioLab, just the other day they'd done a story on alt-right members of 4chan tracking down a flag placed in a random field by Shia LeBoeuf, with a live video feed on it, with the message - he will not divide us (in reference to Trump) - and replacing it with Pepe - they managed to track it down in one day - details below..

They've taken the podcast down in light of this as they felt the focus was being impressed over recognising the hatred behind it, there'd been an earlier event in NY where they'd shown up at the original form of this and screamed Nazi slogans.

It's an interesting if not distasteful phenomenon, the merging of a culture formed around anime into the alt-right. There is a strand.. the idea of cutting through the blah of cultural conversation with the truth that has somehow morphed into outright violence. That it's tolerated, if not pushed, by powerful people who lead the country - and I'm talking Bannon types over Trump specifically, and spread by certain media groups, is very disturbing.

Details..
They searched through recent social media mentions of Shia and found one by a waitress in Tennessee with Shia eating in a restaurant, so they figured Tennessee
They then saw a plane fly over and, knowing it was likely going to or from whatever the Tennessee capital is, through Skyscanner they could work out a few likely flight paths, predict the next plane per flightpath and confirm the general location
Someone drove around honking a horn and those watching the live feed waited until they could hear it.. directed narrower concentric circles until they found the flag.

[The New Sea Territory]

You don't understand...these people don't rally in small towns to try to convince people of their opinion. It's an excuse for violence.

Counter-protesters show up to engage Nazis.



Not how that works, really. Nazis have been rallying like this for years. You can't just ignore five hundred Nazis with torches.

My point exactly, they're looking for violence. Stay away from them and pay them no mind and they have less opportunity to be violent and get media exposure.

....and then a thousand nazis run around unopposed, the cops sit by and let them protest, and black people get assaulted or mosques and synagogues get vandalized. That totally would have worked in 1933.

And yeah... you can just ignore them. Sure, they've been rallying for years, so what? What are they accomplishing? More idiots joining their ranks? Who cares.

It's really easy to not care when you're not getting run over by a car or guns pointed at you.

[Lord of The Rings]

I listen to a podcast called RadioLab, just the other day they'd done a story on alt-right members of 4chan tracking down a flag placed in a random field by Shia LeBoeuf, with a live video feed on it, with the message - he will not divide us (in reference to Trump) - and replacing it with Pepe - they managed to track it down in one day - details below..

They've taken the podcast down in light of this as they felt the focus was being impressed over recognising the hatred behind it, there'd been an earlier event in NY where they'd shown up at the original form of this and screamed Nazi slogans.

It's an interesting if not distasteful phenomenon, the merging of a culture formed around anime into the alt-right. There is a strand.. the idea of cutting through the blah of cultural conversation with the truth that has somehow morphed into outright violence. That it's tolerated, if not pushed, by powerful people who lead the country - and I'm talking Bannon types over Trump specifically, and spread by certain media groups, is very disturbing.

Details..
They searched through recent social media mentions of Shia and found one by a waitress in Tennessee with Shia eating in a restaurant, so they figured Tennessee
They then saw a plane fly over and, knowing it was likely going to or from whatever the Tennessee capital is, through Skyscanner they could work out a few likely flight paths, predict the next plane per flightpath and confirm the general location
Someone drove around honking a horn and those watching the live feed waited until they could hear it.. directed narrower concentric circles until they found the flag.

Damn, that's a whole lot of trouble for a damn flag... People these days really need to find a hobby.

[The New Sea Territory]

Reports from where? Breitbart?

I don't think the political beliefs of the driver should matter.

White supremacist. Terrorist. Killer. Disgusting, reprehensible human being. End of.

That's absurd. If a Nazi, at a Nazi rally, drove a car into counter-protesters, people will think before they give permits next time to an army of Nazis and militia. It matters a lot.

That's not where it ends, and never will, until there aren't any more Nazi marches.

[Ohioan Territory]

My point exactly, they're looking for violence. Stay away from them and pay them no mind and they have less opportunity to be violent and get media exposure.

....and then a thousand nazis run around unopposed, the cops sit by and let them protest, and black people get assaulted or mosques and synagogues get vandalized. That totally would have worked in 1933.

And yeah... you can just ignore them. Sure, they've been rallying for years, so what? What are they accomplishing? More idiots joining their ranks? Who cares.

It's really easy to not care when you're not getting run over by a car or guns pointed at you.

Dude, did you even read what I typed? You chose to ignore the part where I said, "If they're not doing physical damage to property or people, they should be ignored." Obviously if there are people being assaulted or buildings being vandalized, the criminals need to be taken care of.

[Leetmerica]

Today's news has made me sad more than anything else. America is better than this.

[Bombadil]

I listen to a podcast called RadioLab, just the other day they'd done a story on alt-right members of 4chan tracking down a flag placed in a random field by Shia LeBoeuf, with a live video feed on it, with the message - he will not divide us (in reference to Trump) - and replacing it with Pepe - they managed to track it down in one day - details below..

They've taken the podcast down in light of this as they felt the focus was being impressed over recognising the hatred behind it, there'd been an earlier event in NY where they'd shown up at the original form of this and screamed Nazi slogans.

It's an interesting if not distasteful phenomenon, the merging of a culture formed around anime into the alt-right. There is a strand.. the idea of cutting through the blah of cultural conversation with the truth that has somehow morphed into outright violence. That it's tolerated, if not pushed, by powerful people who lead the country - and I'm talking Bannon types over Trump specifically, and spread by certain media groups, is very disturbing.

Details..
They searched through recent social media mentions of Shia and found one by a waitress in Tennessee with Shia eating in a restaurant, so they figured Tennessee
They then saw a plane fly over and, knowing it was likely going to or from whatever the Tennessee capital is, through Skyscanner they could work out a few likely flight paths, predict the next plane per flightpath and confirm the general location
Someone drove around honking a horn and those watching the live feed waited until they could hear it.. directed narrower concentric circles until they found the flag.

Damn, that's a whole lot of trouble for a damn flag... People these days really need to find a hobby.

Well, they're motivated - the danger of this is that they are a movement, with creeds, symbols and etc., and they've somehow connected into a wider cultural issue and received a degree of political backing - that's why it's dangerous but interesting to observe nonetheless.

Still, the Internet is the accelerated spread and connection of ideas, look what book publishing did to Europe for a few hundred years.

[The Black Forrest]

Why not? They seem to be involved in most instances.

Black people are too.

Hell, why not get rid of the 'coloreds'? Same effect.

You are right. People will find another set of people to descriminate once the whites are gone.

Get rid of all people. Problem solved.

[Lord of The Rings]

Damn, that's a whole lot of trouble for a damn flag... People these days really need to find a hobby.

Well, they're motivated - the danger of this is that they are a movement, with creeds, symbols and etc., and they've somehow connected into a wider cultural issue and received a degree of political backing - that's why it's dangerous but interesting to observe nonetheless.

Still, the Internet is the accelerated spread and connection of ideas, look what book publishing did to Europe for a few hundred years.

Yup, one of the major downsides of connecting people still remains that they can fuel each others bullshit to higher levels.

[The Black Forrest]

Reports are filtering in that the driver of the car is an anti Trumper.

Oh I heard that one too. There was also claims of the driver being antifa and thought it was the write racists.

Lacked proof to the claim.

[Lord of The Rings]

Black people are too.

Hell, why not get rid of the 'coloreds'? Same effect.

You are right. People will find another set of people to descriminate once the whites are gone.

Get rid of all people. Problem solved.

I support this idea. No people = No problems.

[Genivaria]

“We must call evil by its name”: Republicans criticize Trump, Jeff Sessions for ignoring white supremacists in Charlottesville statements
Interesting.

[Olerand]

Well clearly they couldn't be annexed, New Mexico could not extend to the Atlantic. But it could be occupied.

And frankly, you put too much importance on what you were "founded on", it's been 200 years. The South needed to be under supervision, and it should have been. What was relevant in 1776 isn't in 1865, nor in 2017. Your Constitution could have been amended, and it should have been. Those States had violated the contract that you had all signed by committing treason.

And it could have caused resistance all it wanted. And the Union would have torched the entire South. Hard to resist from the ashes of your home, farmland, forest, etc.

Short-term pain for long-term gain.

No, that would be terrible. We had just gone through five brutal years of shooting our brothers to bits. The South was already severely ravaged by the war. I know in Europe people like to put the boot to the neck, but we were not going to ravage the ENTIRE SOUTH. The United States entered the war with the intent of making the Union whole again. This is why I stressed earlier that the southerners were Americans. They were our countrymen, not some conquered people to be put to the sword. We weren't going to grind them to dust, like the English did to the Irish. That is antithetical to America. The 300,000 U.S. soldiers that died in the Civil War were not fighting to destroy the south, and in the process destroy what America stands for. They were fighting to restore the Union. A prolonged campaign to destroy the south would have inflamed the public against the Republican Party. The Democrats got 45% of the vote in 1864. If the Republican Party went the radical route, more northerners would have been Democrats as they saw Lincoln's party descend into pseudo-imeperialism. As we saw with President Johnson, the Democrats would have been softer on the south than the Republicans. We might have even skipped most of reconstruction if the Democrats won in 1868. Heck, if Grant had still won with a radical party, he would have lost by 1872 when scandals in his administration began to pile up.

tl;dr A radical Republican party with a campaign to grind down the South would have created a backlash that threw them out of power.

This is so, so rich for a nation built upon first genocide, followed by slavery, followed by cheap quasi-indentured labour.

Anyway, didn't the southern States lose the right to vote after the war for some time, as they weren't in the Union yet or whatever?
Just extend that for longer. And play your policies to the north enough to keep winning elections.

[Kash Island]

Do we know who the driver is?

also, were these right-wing marches legal?

[Ostroeuropa]

Damn, that's a whole lot of trouble for a damn flag... People these days really need to find a hobby.

Well, they're motivated - the danger of this is that they are a movement, with creeds, symbols and etc., and they've somehow connected into a wider cultural issue and received a degree of political backing - that's why it's dangerous but interesting to observe nonetheless.

Still, the Internet is the accelerated spread and connection of ideas, look what book publishing did to Europe for a few hundred years.

I'll also note, this kind of thing is one of the reasons it's taking off a bit. The alt-right is doing hero-worship stuff through memes and egging eachother on, like based stick man and such.

Example:
https://www.wired.com/2017/04/meme-army-now-militia/

We've also seen a rise in the number of KKK members, a rise in the number of assaults on minorities, etc.

The alt-right is best understood as a cultural "Arts" phenomanae/movement that morphed into a political one.

I think that unless conditions improve in the economy for the 99%, or the left starts focusing more on class rhetoric or alters its means of dealing with race/gender, we might see the continued rise of the far-right, at least in the anglosphere.

Recently, a poll showing that a majority of republicans are fine with the suspension of democracy came out.
It's somewhat sobering.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 87216.html

[The Black Forrest]

“We must call evil by its name”: Republicans criticize Trump, Jeff Sessions for ignoring white supremacists in Charlottesville statements
Interesting.

What would it be a surprise Sessions would be quiet on this?

I am surprised by Senator Hatch who I normally don't like.

"We should call evil by its name. My brother didn't give his life fighting Hitler for Nazi ideas to go unchallenged here at home. -OGH"

My granddad would have said something similar.

[Bombadil]

Do we know who the driver is?

also, were these right-wing marches legal?

James Alex Fields of Ohio, I'm sure the phenomenon I described above will similarly be quickly used to detail everything about him.