Charlottesville: Where Do We Go From Here?

[Luminesa]

If we wanna get real technical, Arianism does draw from Christianity of course, thus Islam can be 'connected' to Christianity in that way, but only technically. Otherwise St. Nicholas punches you in the face for bringing Arianism and Christianity into the same room. XD

I'm not convinced that Islam draws directly on Arianism.

It's a very long bow to draw between Islam's denial of Christ's divinity (while accepting His role as an honoured prophet), and Arianism's subordination of the Son to the Father.

Arianism's argument that Christ was begotten by the Father, and isn't cosubstantial with the Father is recognisably a counterargument to what would become Nicene Christianity's argument that Christ was unbegotten and cosubstantial. It literally is an argument over a single iota, between the Arian ηομοιουσιος and the Nicene ηομοουσιος. Arianism is Christianity; it's a heretical extinct Christianity, but Christianity all the same. Islam's outright denial of Christ's divinity or of any relationship between Christ and God marks it out as something quite distinct.

There's also the problem that it would have been at best very difficult for the young Mohammed to encounter Arianism, which by the late 6th / early 7th century was almost wholly confined to specific Germanic kingdoms in the Western Mediterranean. Mohammed's early journeys to Syria would have given him almost no scope for encountering Arian theology. It's therefore telling that when they did draw comparisons between Islam and Christianity, the first Byzantines to encounter the new religion (and 7th-century Byzantines tended to know their theology) tended to make a comparison between Islam and Monophysitism - arguably the polar opposite of Arianism - on the basis that this was a far likelier influence on Mohammed given its geographical distribution.* However, 7th-century Byzantines were far more likely to see Islam as God's means of punishment against the heretical Monophysite provinces of Egypt and Syria rather than as a theological challenge to Nicene Christianity. Seventh-century Byzantine political philosophy (which at this point was largely interchangeable with Byzantine theology) wasn't really designed to meet the challenge of a new religion - or even a new heresy - that could successfully challenge God's chosen Christian Empire, something which would remain a fundamental problem for the Byzantine worldview for its entire history.

But I digress....



See, for example, Becker's 2004 essay 'Christian Polemics and the Formation of Islamic Dogma.' (In Robert Hoyland's book Muslims and Others in Early Islamic Society).

Ohhhhhh, so I missed a few things. Well, thank you for the clarification.

[True Alimeria]

Sorry that my being objectively correct doesn't correlate with your trust.

Speak for yourself and for what you stand for, you liar. You're not the reasonable person here and you can't convince anyone.

Hey Crocker, are we quit or something?
Why won't you reply to me?

[Old Tyrannia]

Sorry that my being objectively correct doesn't correlate with your trust.

Speak for yourself, for what you support you prick. You're not the voice of reason here and you can't convince anyone.

True Alimeria: *** Warned for flaming. *** Editing your post doesn't get you out of hot water.

[True Alimeria]

Should I feel sorry or something?
I know what I'm trying to say and I have the opinion
that this guy also isn't the innocent one here.

I feel that he plays with our emotions especially when you look
at his hatred on us Muslims on his profile.

Ninja: I edited that post again, it says 'prick' again, no problem ^^

[Blasted Craigs]

Islam is not a race, it is an ideology which supports racketeering, murder, rape, and slavery, including sex slavery, being an "Islamophobe" has nothing to do with race.

And you think we will all listen to what you have to say, when you base your whole agenda on hating Muslims and
trying everything possible to make it worse for us, and we should trust you?
Discrimation against a religious group is a serious thing, don't try to talk that over, you're not fooling anyone.

You are right, discrimination against a religious group is a serious thing. Which, although I personally am not a Christian, I view the Christian bashing by people on the left as horrible. As long as state and religion are kept separate, and a practitioner does not assault others or break the law, I feel anyone deserves the right to worship any God or no God as they choose, whether they worship Pan, Thor, Cthulhu, or even an esoteric being made of spaghetti.

As long as that religious beliefs is kept out of government, I couldn't care less. I am extremely anti theocratic, which is why I equally oppose dominionists and Sharia law.

To/Dr
Don't hate someone for their beliefs, but keep your religion outta my government.

[Liriena]

Because god forbid anyone call out racism.

Islam is not a race, it is an ideology which supports racketeering, murder, rape, and slavery, including sex slavery, being an "Islamophobe" has nothing to do with race.

It really isn't very difficult to see past the dog-whistle. You may say "Islam is not a race" (fyi, it's not an "ideology" either), but the way prejudice towards Islam is generally framed tends to carry distinct ethnic undertones. There might be legitimate criticism of religious doctrine thrown into the mix, but it's all too common for anti-Islamic rhetoric to devolve into talk of nationality, culture and immigration (in other words, a very blatant otherization). Not to mention the fact that a lot of anti-Islamic rhetoric goes hand in hand with talk of "white genocide", "ethnic replacement", immigrant birth rates, etc.

[Sernarbia]

Because god forbid anyone call out racism.

Islam is not a race, it is an ideology which supports racketeering, murder, rape, and slavery, including sex slavery,

So all Muslims approve of those things?

being an "Islamophobe" has nothing to do with race.

That's an idiotic statement. Everyone knows what people like you are really saying when you talk about Muslims. You mean Arabs.

[Sernarbia]

Islam is not a race, it is an ideology which supports racketeering, murder, rape, and slavery, including sex slavery, being an "Islamophobe" has nothing to do with race.

It really isn't very difficult to see past the dog-whistle. You may say "Islam is not a race" (fyi, it's not an "ideology" either), but the way prejudice towards Islam is generally framed tends to carry distinct ethnic undertones. There might be legitimate criticism of religious doctrine thrown into the mix, but it's all too common for anti-Islamic rhetoric to devolve into talk of nationality, culture and immigration (in other words, a very blatant otherization). Not to mention the fact that a lot of anti-Islamic rhetoric goes hand in hand with talk of "white genocide", "ethnic replacement", immigrant birth rates, etc.

At this point it's more of a dog-bullhorn than a whistle.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Islam is not a race, it is an ideology which supports racketeering, murder, rape, and slavery, including sex slavery, being an "Islamophobe" has nothing to do with race.

It really isn't very difficult to see past the dog-whistle. You may say "Islam is not a race" (fyi, it's not an "ideology" either), but the way prejudice towards Islam is generally framed tends to carry distinct ethnic undertones. There might be legitimate criticism of religious doctrine thrown into the mix, but it's all too common for anti-Islamic rhetoric to devolve into talk of nationality, culture and immigration (in other words, a very blatant otherization). Not to mention the fact that a lot of anti-Islamic rhetoric goes hand in hand with talk of "white genocide", "ethnic replacement", immigrant birth rates, etc.

Nationality and culture are heavily tied to Islam in the Middle East.

[Liriena]

It really isn't very difficult to see past the dog-whistle. You may say "Islam is not a race" (fyi, it's not an "ideology" either), but the way prejudice towards Islam is generally framed tends to carry distinct ethnic undertones. There might be legitimate criticism of religious doctrine thrown into the mix, but it's all too common for anti-Islamic rhetoric to devolve into talk of nationality, culture and immigration (in other words, a very blatant otherization). Not to mention the fact that a lot of anti-Islamic rhetoric goes hand in hand with talk of "white genocide", "ethnic replacement", immigrant birth rates, etc.

Nationality and culture are heavily tied to Islam in the Middle East.

That's not really an excuse. I could argue that Southern European nationalities and cultures are heavily tied to Catholicism, but you don't see criticism of Catholicism constantly devolve into complaints about Spanish immigrants and "barbaric" Italian culture.

[True Alimeria]

Ok Crocker,
in fear of getting banned before you answer to me,
I'll tell you what is wrong with you:

Anti-Kosovo, Anti-Palestine, Anti-Islam, Pro-Nagorno-Karabakh, Pro-Israel, Pro-Myanmar etc. etc.

and even Pro-Republika Srpska? Wooww!! Svaka ti cast XD
How the hell do you know about Republika Smrdska? You serious?

It seems that you want to make sure that you search every single corner for groups of people
who happened to fight against Muslims which automatically makes them innocent.
You hate Muslims and you have nothing to do than to even brag about it, and to spread misinformation here.



Out of the ~5000 mass graves in Bih, most of them are located in Foca, Visegrad, Vlasenica, Zvornik, Bratunac
and of course in Srebrenica, all of them are in the RS. 51% of all victims in the war being Muslims.
And not to speak about the concentration camp in Prijedor and the mass grave in Tomasica which Europeans
do not like to talk about. I mean genocide, in the heart of Europe? Better be quiet about that.

Foca being known for its houses where numerous Muslim women were raped, Chetnik war criminals still
marching FREELY in Visegrad, an Orthodox church being built on a MUSLIM MASS GRAVE, the government
of the RS hiding the bodies of over 4000 dead Muslims
and a waste disposal site on ANOTHER MASS GRAVE, for what reason? TO HIDE IT!

That's what I know because I'm Bosnian and you idiot have the guts to play with our emotions?
You are even proud of it, I guess.
Maybe if it were true, you would applaud the killings of 3000 Muslims in Burma in just 3 days,
you genocidal scum.

So shut the fuck you have no right to talk in a discussion where objectiviy matters!
Especially when you're talking about justice!

[True Alimeria]

Oh and also..

Interesting that someone knows about the rs, I'm amazed, no srsly.
You truly seem to give a damn about Serbs, ha?
Then why don't you also put "Pro-Republika Srpska Krajina" in your signature, jel? Haa?

You probably know that about 200000 Serbs fled from Croatia, but noo.
You won't say anything about it because they were Christians and not Muslims
so Croatian independence was justified, ha hu..

[Taihei Tengoku]

lmao balkan comment thread

[Catochristoferson]

This is why fascism should not be tolerated. Liberals and Conservatives should realize that advocating for Fascism is inherently violent, and that there is no such thing as "peacefully" advocating fascism.

Being anti-fascism is self defense against people who would rather see people like us dead. And this time moderates can't use the "but they aren't hurting anyone" excuse, because the "unite the right" rally was a clear example of violence.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Nationality and culture are heavily tied to Islam in the Middle East.

That's not really an excuse.

But it doesn't make it racism.

[Proctopeo]

This is why fascism should not be tolerated. Liberals and Conservatives should realize that advocating for Fascism is inherently violent, and that there is no such thing as "peacefully" advocating fascism.

Being anti-fascism is self defense against people who would rather see people like us dead. And this time moderates can't use the "but they aren't hurting anyone" excuse, because the "unite the right" rally was a clear example of violence.

Times like this almost make me wish English had a body that regulates its use

[Liriena]

That's not really an excuse.

But it doesn't make it racism.

In a vacuum, with no context whatsoever? Yeah, not necessarily. But I think it's fairly accurate to say that that sort of rhetoric tends to go hand in hand with a form of racism.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

But it doesn't make it racism.

In a vacuum, with no context whatsoever? Yeah, not necessarily. But I think it's fairly accurate to say that that sort of rhetoric tends to go hand in hand with some form of racist authoritarianism.

It's an opinion often shared by such people, but that doesn't make it racism.

[Camaalbakrius]

This is why fascism should not be tolerated. Liberals and Conservatives should realize that advocating for Fascism is inherently violent, and that there is no such thing as "peacefully" advocating fascism.

Being anti-fascism is self defense against people who would rather see people like us dead. And this time moderates can't use the "but they aren't hurting anyone" excuse, because the "unite the right" rally was a clear example of violence.

How then, do you suggest we deal with it then? Through what means?

[Crockerland]

Islam is not a race, it is an ideology which supports racketeering, murder, rape, and slavery, including sex slavery, being an "Islamophobe" has nothing to do with race.

It really isn't very difficult to see past the dog-whistle. You may say "Islam is not a race" (fyi, it's not an "ideology" either),

Well, it definitely is an ideology, like all other religions, so you're wrong there.

but the way prejudice towards Islam is generally framed tends to carry distinct ethnic undertones.

Firstly, noting that Islam, through the Quran and Hadith, endorse racketeering, rape, sex slavery, and a number of other vile and illiberal practices is a statement based on observable, concrete evidence, the complete opposite of prejudice.
Secondly, claims revolving around things being "generally framed" are by and large unprovable and not based on empirical data. Do you have statistics showing that a significant percentage of people who are critical of Islam are also racist? Because most of the Islam-critical people I have heard of are very accepting of and sympathetic towards ex-Muslims, who are usually of the same ethnicity as other Muslims.

There might be legitimate criticism of religious doctrine thrown into the mix, but it's all too common for anti-Islamic rhetoric to devolve into talk of nationality, culture and immigration (in other words, a very blatant otherization).

60% of Muslim Jordanians support Hamas and 58% of them think that converting from Islam should be a crime punishable by death, should we not discuss the obvious problems with Jordanian culture which are linked very much with Islam? I don't see how a conversation "devolv[ing]" into being about culture or nationality is bad when there are very obvious problems with some nations' cultures where Islam is the majority religion.

Not to mention the fact that a lot of anti-Islamic rhetoric goes hand in hand with talk of "white genocide", "ethnic replacement", immigrant birth rates, etc.

Pretending that anti-Islamic "rhetoric" goes hand-in-hand with white "nationalist" bullshit is like saying that anti-capitalist rhetoric goes hand-in-hand with nazism or anti-semitism. Some of the same people have supported both but it's ridiculous to act as if they are in some way inherently linked.

Islam is not a race, it is an ideology which supports racketeering, murder, rape, and slavery, including sex slavery,

So all Muslims approve of those things?

being an "Islamophobe" has nothing to do with race.

That's an idiotic statement. Everyone knows what people like you are really saying when you talk about Muslims. You mean Arabs.

What a brain-dead accusation.

[Nexus of All Realities]

This is why fascism should not be tolerated. Liberals and Conservatives should realize that advocating for Fascism is inherently violent, and that there is no such thing as "peacefully" advocating fascism.
.

All of which makes you a fascist as well.

[Liriena]

This is why fascism should not be tolerated. Liberals and Conservatives should realize that advocating for Fascism is inherently violent, and that there is no such thing as "peacefully" advocating fascism.
.

All of which makes you a fascist as well.

That makes no sense.

[USS Monitor]

Ok Crocker,
in fear of getting banned before you answer to me,
I'll tell you what is wrong with you:

Anti-Kosovo, Anti-Palestine, Anti-Islam, Pro-Nagorno-Karabakh, Pro-Israel, Pro-Myanmar etc. etc.

and even Pro-Republika Srpska? Wooww!! Svaka ti cast XD
How the hell do you know about Republika Smrdska? You serious?

It seems that you want to make sure that you search every single corner for groups of people
who happened to fight against Muslims which automatically makes them innocent.
You hate Muslims and you have nothing to do than to even brag about it, and to spread misinformation here.

(Image)

Out of the ~5000 mass graves in Bih, most of them are located in Foca, Visegrad, Vlasenica, Zvornik, Bratunac
and of course in Srebrenica, all of them are in the RS. 51% of all victims in the war being Muslims.
And not to speak about the concentration camp in Prijedor and the mass grave in Tomasica which Europeans
do not like to talk about. I mean genocide, in the heart of Europe? Better be quiet about that.

Foca being known for its houses where numerous Muslim women were raped, Chetnik war criminals still
marching FREELY in Visegrad, an Orthodox church being built on a MUSLIM MASS GRAVE, the government
of the RS hiding the bodies of over 4000 dead Muslims
and a waste disposal site on ANOTHER MASS GRAVE, for what reason? TO HIDE IT!

That's what I know because I'm Bosnian and you idiot have the guts to play with our emotions?
You are even proud of it, I guess.
Maybe if it were true, you would applaud the killings of 3000 Muslims in Burma in just 3 days,
you genocidal scum.

So shut the fuck you have no right to talk in a discussion where objectiviy matters!
Especially when you're talking about justice!

*** 1 day ban for flaming ***

You can tell Crocker why you think he's wrong, but you aren't allowed to call him an "idiot" or "genocidal scum." Attack the argument, not the poster.

[Luminesa]

Islam is not a race, it is an ideology which supports racketeering, murder, rape, and slavery, including sex slavery,

So all Muslims approve of those things?

being an "Islamophobe" has nothing to do with race.

That's an idiotic statement. Everyone knows what people like you are really saying when you talk about Muslims. You mean Arabs.

What if I told you there's quite a large number of Muslims who are not Arabs?

[Liriena]

It really isn't very difficult to see past the dog-whistle. You may say "Islam is not a race" (fyi, it's not an "ideology" either),

Well, it definitely is an ideology, like all other religions, so you're wrong there.

Ah, my bad. I was not aware that you applied this to all religions.

but the way prejudice towards Islam is generally framed tends to carry distinct ethnic undertones.

Firstly, noting that Islam, through the Quran and Hadith, endorse racketeering, rape, sex slavery, and a number of other vile and illiberal practices is a statement based on observable, concrete evidence, the complete opposite of prejudice.

Except it becomes prejudice the moment you assume that the totality of the Islamic world strictly abides by a literal, fundamentalist interpretation of doctrine, or that a literal, fundamentalist interpretation of doctrine is the universal essence of the faith.

Secondly, claims revolving around things being "generally framed" are by and large unprovable and not based on empirical data. Do you have statistics showing that a significant percentage of people who are critical of Islam are also racist? Because most of the Islam-critical people I have heard of are very accepting of and sympathetic towards ex-Muslims, who are usually of the same ethnicity as other Muslims.

I will admit that I am not speaking based on statistics derived from a representative sample.

There might be legitimate criticism of religious doctrine thrown into the mix, but it's all too common for anti-Islamic rhetoric to devolve into talk of nationality, culture and immigration (in other words, a very blatant otherization).

60% of Muslim Jordanians support Hamas and 58% of them think that converting from Islam should be a crime punishable by death, should we not discuss the obvious problems with Jordanian culture which are linked very much with Islam? I don't see how a conversation "devolv[ing]" into being about culture or nationality is bad when there are very obvious problems with some nations' cultures where Islam is the majority religion.

An honest discussion about real, serious cultural problems and their link with a specific religion isn't bad. I see a problem the moment it goes from an honest, well-meaning critique to fear-mongering, bigotry, collective responsibility, dishonest generalizations, equivocations, etc.

Not to mention the fact that a lot of anti-Islamic rhetoric goes hand in hand with talk of "white genocide", "ethnic replacement", immigrant birth rates, etc.

Pretending that anti-Islamic "rhetoric" goes hand-in-hand with white "nationalist" bullshit is like saying that anti-capitalist rhetoric goes hand-in-hand with nazism or anti-semitism. Some of the same people have supported both but it's ridiculous to act as if they are in some way inherently linked.

There is a visible correlation, however: the most prominent (and popular) anti-Islamic figures, organizations and movements tend to lean towards the far right and dabble in ethno-nationalism.