Charlottesville: Where Do We Go From Here?

[Elhazia]

The thing is very simple.
Everyone has the right to protest (regardless of ideology).
No one has the right to be violent.

All those who participated in the violence were guilty, especially those who have been the most violent. And the biggest blame is on those who started the violence (I don't know who it was).

[Minoa]

Minoa the News Owl has caught the Daily Stormer moving its services … to Google: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-virgin ... KKCN1AU0DC

I don't think it may last long.

Meanwhile, Cloudflare has acknowledge the complaints but isn't saying whether or not it is severing ties with TDS.

Follow-up: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40960053 and http://www.reuters.com/article/us-virgi ... SKCN1AW2L5

Cloudflare has severed ties with The Daily Stormer. The Russian media watchdog Roskomnadzor has followed suit, and so has Twitter.

I understand the concerns by Matthew Prince that it could become harder to resist pressure from governments to censor, but I think that the concerns can be mitigated by being specific on what is not welcome on the Internet: as far as I know: chain letters, malware, scams, inciting racism and child/violent porn. Oh, and be as narrow as possible.

[-Ocelot-]

The thing is very simple.
Everyone has the right to protest (regardless of ideology).
No one has the right to be violent.

This kind of attitude is why neo-Nazism has gotten so big the last decade. By ignoring hate groups, you normalize their violent dogma and allow them to recruit more people into their ranks. When you allow neo-Nazis march freely, you basically declare that violent ideologies are as normal as non-violent ideologies. Fanatics get bold and they end up killing people.

[Omnonia]

This kind of attitude is why neo-Nazism has gotten so big the last decade. By ignoring hate groups, you normalize their violent dogma and allow them to recruit more people into their ranks. When you allow neo-Nazis march freely, you basically declare that violent ideologies are as normal as non-violent ideologies. Fanatics get bold and they end up killing people.

Exactly. The right to state one's opinion in public must depend on whether that opinion is compatible with a free, democratic society based in human rights. If it isn't, then there should not be a right to express it in public, and laws should be able to be passes to arrest, try, and sentence people doing so. If the police and legal system can round them up and lock them up, you no longer incite private citizens to take to the street and beat them up in acts of vigilantism.

The First Amendment simply goes too far in its scope, and needs to be modified to get reined in to reasonable extents. And contrary to the Libertarian credo: Doing so will strengthen a constitutional democracy, not undermine it. Absolute freedom of speech has never been and will never be a neccessary condition for democratic states to exist - that's just Libertarian propaganda.

[Dushan]

@Hatespeech laws, Antifa and political violence

Eurotrash reporting in!

Europe has hate speech laws and it has not prevented the development of a culture of political street-violence over the past decades, which by now has become apparently a thing in America as well.

In fact I warned about this a Year ago to happen.

Before Trump got elected and before alt-left extremists burned down a part of Hamburg at the G20 summit.

Both sides very aggressive and violent, trying to attack each other physically. Often enough Journalists and Civilian bystanders get physically assaulted and property (such as Cars) damaged.

Despite a lot of Hate speech laws, a culture of politcally motivated Street Violence has been developed.

viewtopic.php?p=28850529#p28850529

...Members of the Antifa and Neonazi Subcultures (they're essentially more sub-cultures than actual political groups) are in a constant State of private War against each other. Physically harassing and Assaulting each other whenever they get the chance. The Authorities and the Political establishment are merely tolerating this for their own reasons and issues...

viewtopic.php?p=29228986#p29228986

Does this sound familiar?

[Omnonia]

Eurotrash reporting in!

Europe has already such laws and it has not prevented the development of a culture of political street-violence over the past decades.

I live in Germany. There is no culture of political street violence.

and before alt-left extremists burned down a part of Hamburg at the G20 summit.

If you're trying to insinuate they did so without bringing the police onto the spot (who moved in against them, if anything, too harshly and violently); without judicial consequences; and without the police already having a close watch on them beforehand, then that claim is simply false.

Nobody burned down anything at the G20 summit in Hamburg without these things happening.

[-Ocelot-]

Dushan, Europe does have many neo-nazis (I'm European and know this very well) but it's nowhere near what the US has. In Europe they are a small minority and subject to anti-hate laws that restrict their activities. The US has a much bigger percentage of far-right fanatics and they are armed, organized and free to act as they wish. It's not a far cry from a paramilitary group.

If the US had it's own strict anti-hate laws they could crack down on these neo-nazis and prevent them from getting too powerful. Right now, they are still amassing power and they do so faster than before because Republicans don't exactly hate them. At some point they are going to become uncontrollable and many people will die. Europe will never have to worry about far-right armed militia.

[Vassenor]

So apparently the organiser of the Unite the Right rally was employed by Pence while he was governor.

[Neutraligon]

So apparently the organiser of the Unite the Right rally was employed by Pence while he was governor.

Does that mean Pence hired this individual? Does that mean Pence was aware of this individuals opinions? Hmm more reading suggests it would be hard for Pence not to know.

[Geilinor]

So apparently the organiser of the Unite the Right rally was employed by Pence while he was governor.

Does that mean Pence hired this individual? Does that mean Pence was aware of this individuals opinions? Hmm more reading suggests it would be hard for Pence not to know.

The governor plays no role in most hiring, unless this individual was working closely with Pence, which seems highly unlikely.

[Blasted Craigs]

This kind of attitude is why neo-Nazism has gotten so big the last decade. By ignoring hate groups, you normalize their violent dogma and allow them to recruit more people into their ranks. When you allow neo-Nazis march freely, you basically declare that violent ideologies are as normal as non-violent ideologies. Fanatics get bold and they end up killing people.

Exactly. The right to state one's opinion in public must depend on whether that opinion is compatible with a free, democratic society based in human rights. If it isn't, then there should not be a right to express it in public, and laws should be able to be passes to arrest, try, and sentence people doing so. If the police and legal system can round them up and lock them up, you no longer incite private citizens to take to the street and beat them up in acts of vigilantism.

The First Amendment simply goes too far in its scope, and needs to be modified to get reined in to reasonable extents. And contrary to the Libertarian credo: Doing so will strengthen a constitutional democracy, not undermine it. Absolute freedom of speech has never been and will never be a neccessary condition for democratic states to exist - that's just Libertarian propaganda.

Ok....following this logic....
Who decides what speech is "incompatible" with a democratic society?
What standards are used?
I mean, if the standard is it may lead to harm of another being, then people speaking in support of abortion could be considered a "threat". Those that preach religion, or any religion other than the religion endorsed by those in power could be considered a threat. Hell, Nazis very much curtailed free speech in their favour when they had control circa WW2.

Any disagreement with those in power and the decisions they make could be considered threatening.
You see, the problem with curtailing speech for the harm it may bring is defining what is "harmful speech".
What is "Harmful speech" is decided by those in power, and if those in power align their views with yours, then it may seem like society is headed for a utopia. But let them disagree with you on an issue, for example, say the establishment that decides what is harmful thinks racial quotas are harmful. Now, speaking about the plight of minorities is "hate speech" and should be forbidden, because it could rile people up into a violent state.

My opinion? I like my freedom of speech, and if that means I have to hear about the glory of Talos on the street-corner to keep it, so be it.

[Omnonia]

Who decides what speech is "incompatible" with a democratic society?
What standards are used?
I mean, if the standard is it may lead to harm of another being, then people speaking in support of abortion could be considered a "threat". Those that preach religion, or any religion other than the religion endorsed by those in power could be considered a threat. Hell, Nazis very much curtailed free speech in their favour when they had control circa WW2.

Any disagreement with those in power and the decisions they make could be considered threatening.
You see, the problem with curtailing speech for the harm it may bring is defining what is "harmful speech".
What is "Harmful speech" is decided by those in power, and if those in power align their views with yours, then it may seem like society is headed for a utopia. But let them disagree with you on an issue, for example, say the establishment that decides what is harmful thinks racial quotas are harmful. Now, speaking about the plight of minorities is "hate speech" and should be forbidden, because it could rile people up into a violent state.

My opinion? I like my freedom of speech, and if that means I have to hear about the glory of Talos on the street-corner to keep it, so be it.

That's what strong constitutions and the UDHR are for.

I'll never stand for our (Germany's) constitution to be eroded to the point where all speech becomes legal. And if people who stand for violating human rights and human dignity feel oppressed by not being able to legally spout their hatred... well, boo hoo, I won't be losing a single second of sleep about it. The state is fully justified with curbing their entitlement by imposing reasonable legal sanctions.

Besides, they still can say whatever they want in the privacy of their home, and think whatever they want everywhere, as long as they don't say it. That's perfectly enough freedom. Any more freedom than that, and you risk eroding democracy and civilized society. As a German, my stance on that is Never Again.

[Tekeristan]

Nazis are incapable of non-violence, for their beliefs are built around violence and its utilitization.

[Republic Of Varra]

So apparently the organiser of the Unite the Right rally was employed by Pence while he was governor.

And the guy who shot up the Republican representatives worked for Bernie Sander's campaign. If you are sincerely saying Pence is in at anyway fault for this, then I must slap you with this:

[The Black Forrest]

Arnold speaks out on the Nazis and the confederate supporters....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/arn ... 608a6b68ac

[Minoa]

EFF responds to the exile of The Daily Stormer in the aftermath of Charlottesville: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40974069

From a European’s perspective, I am confident that we can have freedom of expression and also fight neo-Nazism and other dangerous political ideologies at the same time, given that many of such groups have blatant disregard for a democratic society and the protection of the safety and freedoms of others.

[Corrian]

In before The Daily Stormer disappears into the Deep Web.

[Vassenor]

WaPo: What if Western media covered Charlottesville the same way it covers other nations

[Corrian]

Sigh...

Man pepper sprays Confederate re-enactors

[Blasted Craigs]

Well...adding to the statues deemed offensive, add statues of Abraham Lincoln.
https://bluelivesmatter.blue/abe-lincoln-statue-vandalized/
To be fair, here is an example of establishment news reporting on the issue.
Of course, with no evidence, most MSM are blaming right politic leaning groups for the damage, even though local residents have posted that Lincoln was a "racist" and should be vilified.
And note, this was done in Chicago's South side, a predominately black neighborhood. An "ebil white nationalist racist" should stand out, and also, it's Trumps fault somehow as well.
http://chicago.suntimes.com/chicago-politics/674297/
Quote from above
"Ald. Ray Lopez (15th) on Thursday accused President Donald Trump of emboldening vandals to set fire to a bust of Abraham Lincoln that has stood as a symbol of freedom in West Englewood for nearly a century.

Lopez said Trump’s widely condemned decision to twice blame “both sides” for the white nationalist rally that turned deadly in Virginia has emboldened haters."
Image of locals calling Lincoln racist in online chats.

Damaged statue.

[Corrian]

Just freaking stop, people. For Fuck's Sake.

[Washington Resistance Army]

People are dumb as shit, news at 11.

[Corrian]

People are dumb as shit, news at 11.

Your favorite VP candidate has something to say

[Washington Resistance Army]

People are dumb as shit, news at 11.

Your favorite VP candidate has something to say

I'm pretty scared of that attitude catching on tbh.

[Corrian]

Your favorite VP candidate has something to say

I'm pretty scared of that attitude catching on tbh.

I saw a poll, I think from NPR, that a majority of people, including Democrats, do not approve of taking statues down, so I have a feeling when you go to the level of Jefferson, Stone Mountain, Abraham Lincoln, and Washington, there really won't be much support for that at all.

Hell, I am among the one fine with throwing some statues and monuments in a museum instead, and I find this shit ridiculous.