Charlottesville: Where Do We Go From Here?

[MERIZoC]

Imagine if the events in the past day had been perpetrated by blacks instead of nazis.

Fuck fascists and the cops that enable them.

[Olerand]

It's only terrorism when the driver is a Muslim, silly.

I would say the car attack was terrorism, probably inspired by similar terrorist attacks in Europe.

Was it intended to incite terror in civilians to bring about political change?

The man who shot the church in Charleston was a terrorist, as he even said that he wanted to ignite a race war. Who is this guy and what does he want?

[Empire of Cats]

RIP Balk....

[Olerand]

Did they rise up in rebellion against France? Did they commit treason against France?

Hell, I would even understand having statues of Toussaint Louverture for his historical significance, but Lee? The Confederacy lost the war, they were a blink of the eye of History, and their legacy has been more powerful (and harmful) than their existence.

No they only took peoples lives with no justification most of the time. You're a true Leftist.

They viciously rose in rebellion against people whom they believed were a threat to their hegemony.

So... They didn't? They were French, and French nationalists even? Yup, they were.

[Licana]

Imagine if the events in the past day had been perpetrated by blacks instead of nazis.

So you want me to imagine daily life in the city of Chicago?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

The Union is usually used to refer to the loyalist states during the Civil War, because they were fighting to preserve the Union. Also the North and just the US, but the Union works too.

We should honestly drop the Union terminology. We were the United States of America the entire time.

We were also the Union the entire time too though.

Imagine if the events in the past day had been perpetrated by blacks instead of nazis.

Fuck fascists and the cops that enable them.

Pretty much everybody condemns this.

[Olerand]

The Union being? Did America change its name? Its flag, its State, its Constitution, its capital? Who is this Union?

The Union is usually used to refer to the loyalist states during the Civil War, because they were fighting to preserve the Union. Also the North and just the US, but the Union works too.

So it was America.

Imagine if the events in the past day had been perpetrated by blacks instead of nazis.

Fuck fascists and the cops that enable them.

[Thermodolia]

You do realize that they where talking about the fucking Nazis? 6 to 11 million is the holocaust number

Yes, so? Is killing more than that somehow less "evil" than killing this precise, arbitrary number of people? Is 11 million a tragedy, but 100 million a statistic?

Should tongue-in-cheek statements be approached as if they were 100% serious at all times?

What? They where not fucking defending the driver just the opposite. Can't you see that? Are you actually reading the posts or are you to stubborn to admit that you dun goofed

[Nexus of All Realities]

Imagine if the events in the past day had been perpetrated by blacks instead of nazis.

Fuck fascists and the cops that enable them.

Remember Baltimore? Or L.A. for that matter. They were allowed to run riot until the very end when they ran out of steam anyway.

[Thermodolia]

Not traitors at least not to me.

Had they lost they would have been traitors, as America would have remained Britain. But they won. So in America, they are liberators. In Britain, traitors.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

[Napkiraly]

This story about these statues are the funniest thing... This man led an army that killed Americans... And yet, he has a statue in front of buildings in America, and Americans marching to defend him.

America...

Southerners were Americans, just in rebellion.

They didn't consider themselves part of the same America as the North and therefore not the same kind of American. The America of today is the one that Union soldiers fought for, killed for, were maimed for and died for. Along with those in the South who didn't revolt and actively opposed the CSA.

[Hakons]

Southerners were Americans, just in rebellion.

So... When you literally declare yourself out of America, raise your guns in rebellion, kill Americans, loot American homes... You're still American? Damn, what does somebody have to do to stop being American?

America, the land you can never escape.

The southerners were always Americans and our countrymen. Though they chose to rebel to protect an abomination, they were still our countrymen. If we would say they were no longer American, that would be saying the south was no longer in the United States, essentially identifying them as a different nation, and not a rebellion within America.

[Benuty]

Had they lost they would have been traitors, as America would have remained Britain. But they won. So in America, they are liberators. In Britain, traitors.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

That's debatable as terrorism hasn't entirely been used exclusively for the cause of freeing a group.

[Empire of Cats]

So... When you literally declare yourself out of America, raise your guns in rebellion, kill Americans, loot American homes... You're still American? Damn, what does somebody have to do to stop being American?

America, the land you can never escape.

The southerners were always Americans and our countrymen. Though they chose to rebel to protect an abomination, they were still our countrymen. If we would say they were no longer American, that would be saying the south was no longer in the United States, essentially identifying them as a different nation, and not a rebellion within America.

Well said. It's hard to grasp, much alone explain.

[Licana]

What? They where not fucking defending the driver just the opposite. Can't you see that?

You're still approaching this as if it was a statement made in complete earnest. It was a joke. I was taking that statement and using its implications to come to a completely opposite, but internally consistent, conclusion. That you apparently needed this spelled out for you is quite telling.

Are you actually reading the posts or are you to stubborn to admit that you dun goofed

Pot-kettle.

[Aellex]

Excuse me! He leeched off of Engels, Friedrich Engels. Not Hegel. Leave Hegel alone.

Slip of tongue from my part but it's true that poor Hegel was a gud boi.

You mean Engels, for one, and as Hegel was already long since dead and completely opposed on most philosophical and political matters to Marx. And two, Marx was essentially black-listed from gainful employment in his homeland from very early on, and supported himself through the barely legal radical newspapers. And when he was forced into exile, first to Paris and then later to London, he continued his political work.

But as a German political exile, he had essentially no options for gainful employment, aside from his work as an international correspondent to the New York Herald Tribune, because Americans generally don't give a tuppeny fuck about European political squabbles.

He refused the job that Engels offered him at his factory, preferring to leech off him without doing anything apart from his scribbling instead. I could have almost "excused" him for that had he not be so blatant and disgusting about it, whining about his situation and begging for money on the very same letter where he expressed him his "condolences" for the death of his love and life-long partner. I mean, that alone is pretty bad in and of itself but what makes me utterly loath the man and view him as an utterly morally bankrupt parasite without any shred of decency is that on top of it, he asks if he could get her freaking home since "he won't have an use for it anymore".
I mean, defend his works all you want but that man at a personal level was nothing but scum.

[Hurdergaryp]

They were also traitors who explicitly founded a rogue state for the purposes of defending the institution of slavery.

Actually it was only about slavery in the mind of the North. A good excuse anyway. A good way to enforce overreaching federalism.

Vile revisionism. Here, a few quotes from official Southern statements from that era:

- South Carolina was the first state to secede from the Union. In its “Declaration of Immediate Causes” the government of South Carolina itself said that secession was necessary due to “an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery.”

- In its Declaration of Secession, the state of Mississippi wrote, “Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery.” It went on, “A blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition [of slavery], or a dissolution of the Union.”

- In his famous Cornerstone Address, Confederate Vice President Alexander Stevens made it absolutely clear what caused secession and justified the Civil War. “The new [Confederate] Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.”

[Nexus of All Realities]

Had they lost they would have been traitors, as America would have remained Britain. But they won. So in America, they are liberators. In Britain, traitors.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

Which sums up this thread rather well.

[Computer Lab]

This story about these statues are the funniest thing... This man led an army that killed Americans... And yet, he has a statue in front of buildings in America, and Americans marching to defend him.

America...

Hey I don't get it either. He and the rest of the CSA where traitors and shouldn't be memorialized

After the war he did a bunch of things that had lasting positive effects. He surrendered where many other generals of the CSA would have continued fighting and led to thousands of deaths.

There is also a trend in human history to recognize opponents who fought honorably.

That might not be worth being memorialized to you, but it isn't unreasonable to see how people would for just that. Besides, any time someone talks about Lee, Grant is inevitably going to come up along with the fact that the Union won the war.

[Olerand]

Had they lost they would have been traitors, as America would have remained Britain. But they won. So in America, they are liberators. In Britain, traitors.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

Thus, the Confederacy's freedom fighters are America's traitors.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

Which sums up this thread rather well.

No it doesn't.

[Benuty]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

Which sums up this thread rather well.

Not entirely true at all since cults using actions to bring about the end aren't freedom fighters. Unless you count ending humanity as a merciful freedom.

[Olerand]

So... When you literally declare yourself out of America, raise your guns in rebellion, kill Americans, loot American homes... You're still American? Damn, what does somebody have to do to stop being American?

America, the land you can never escape.

The southerners were always Americans and our countrymen. Though they chose to rebel to protect an abomination, they were still our countrymen. If we would say they were no longer American, that would be saying the south was no longer in the United States, essentially identifying them as a different nation, and not a rebellion within America.

So even when you declare yourself not American, and kill Americans, and attempt to capture America's capital, and wish harm and worse on America, you are still Americans.

Wow, I didn't take America for the magnanimous type. I don't think anyone has been this magnanimous in history even. Kudos to America.

[Aellex]

Did they rise up in rebellion against France? Did they commit treason against France?

Hell, I would even understand having statues of Toussaint Louverture for his historical significance, but Lee? The Confederacy lost the war, they were a blink of the eye of History, and their legacy has been more powerful (and harmful) than their existence.

I'm really arguing against my actual opinion here and pushing devil's advocacy to its limits but if you were to ask some Royalists, I'm sure they would tell you yes.

And I would agree with you on your second point.

[Hakons]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

Thus, the Confederacy's freedom fighters are America's traitors.

Even worse, the south seceded to have the "freedom" to take away other men's freedom.